multi-cultural

Jeff Pringle · 14th July 2008, 01:46 AM

Did you guys see this go by on ebay?
Looks to be a gen-u-ine Nihonto o-yari (“big spear” in Japanese), re-engineered with some Japanese sword parts into a sword by some islander(?), but where, and any guesses as to when?
The shape of the handle, relatively simple carving and zoomorphic element make me think Filipino, but I am by no means familiar with SE Asian stuff and would like to hear other opinions, and has anyone seen other items of similar mixed heritage?

RhysMichael · 14th July 2008, 02:17 AM

I would say definitely a composite piece, maybe fake maybe from left over or captured parts. Do the parts look and feel real ? It has a philippines feel to me also. I cannot say why but something about it makes me think of a sansibar. I have no conscious basis for that, so its just a thought. I would love to handle this piece.

Rick · 14th July 2008, 04:46 AM

Strikes me as a Philippine modification too .
I'd like to see details of the base of the spear .

An O Yari would seem a strange thing to find in the Philippines; I can see NCO blades etc. , but a Yari ?

Would something like that go on campaign ?

Gavin Nugent · 14th July 2008, 09:10 AM

I under stand it to be a Hachiwara or Japanese helmety breaker.
More often than not, they do resemble a Jitte but also come in a plain curved, "rod" for want of a better word with no protrusion to catch blades. Horn handles are very common too, I have read it is used as a left handed parrying devise as well.
I though it looked composite, but from images that I have seen over the years though it could be the real deal too.
I hope this gives some direction to those interested.

regards

Gav

RhysMichael · 14th July 2008, 11:26 PM

Far outside my range of study but I thought haciwara looked like this

http://www.liongate-armsandarmour.co...25-1_small.jpg

I thought Hachiwara and Tekken did not have edges as such where this blade does look like a slightly bent omi no yari
http://www.ncjsc.org/gloss_yari.htm
Below is an omi no yari

Gavin Nugent · 15th July 2008, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

Far outside my range of study but I thought haciwara looked like this

http://www.liongate-armsandarmour.co...25-1_small.jpg

I thought Hachiwara and Tekken did not have edges as such where this blade does look like a slightly bent omi no yari
http://www.ncjsc.org/gloss_yari.htm
Below is an omi no yari

Yes you are right about the image you produced, but for other variances of this weapon's appearances, refer to Stones Glossary.
The handle being of horn and it's shape and fittings are typical of these items, I too am no expert but I did look at these at length when I stumbled across them some years ago and found that the square blade(for want of a better word) and hook that appears in the image you provided are the norm, but they do stray far outside these boundries. For all intents and purposes, it could well have been a modified yari to produce this somewhat unusual item.

Gav

Lee · 31st July 2008, 11:51 AM

This yari also lost its long tang:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000158.html

Jeff Pringle · 31st July 2008, 06:38 PM

Interesting Yarifish, Lee! The carving’s stylized realism incline me to agree with the trend of the thread in thinking it was modified somewhere close in to Japan. I don’t think I have ever seen a fish face carved quite like that one, if I do I’ll let you know.

Gav, if the auction photo above isn’t making it clear, you’ll have to take my word for it – there is no resemblance to a hachiwara in the form of this item.

The curve of the blade was damage done long after the piece had ended its useful life, the associated edge damage is very fresh and indicates five or six strong swipes at an immovable object in the hands of someone unfamiliar with edged weapons; a cluster of them too close to the grip with a few wild blows as the destroyer found his range. Really, more tragic than the cut down tang.

Evidently, the spear saw significant service as a sword, the forward edge has been re-sharpened enough to bring it a sixteenth of an inch (1.2mm) closer to the ridge than the back edge in the area of the center of percussion.

Andrew · 31st July 2008, 07:58 PM

Jeff is it worth trying to rework that blade and straighten it out again before you polish it?

Jeff Pringle · 1st August 2008, 06:17 PM

It is to me, and it would need to be straightened to do the polishing correctly. Since the major warps were unfairly installed (if I’m reading the damage correctly, of course), and since with Japanese blades you can pin down the time and place of manufacture, even the individual smith, by looking in to the polished steel – it feels like the right thing to do.
It can be a risky operation, since you never know when metal fatigue will cause a blade with a long history of flexing to snap, but I was able to coax it through and it is mostly straight now, just a couple minor adjustments left.

Andrew · 1st August 2008, 06:30 PM

Nice! Are you going to try and heat treat it again, or leave well-enough alone? What about the mountings?

Love to see pics when you get a polish going. Any chance you could take pics along the way as you restore it?

14th July 2008, 01:46 AM	#1
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	multi-cultural Did you guys see this go by on ebay? Looks to be a gen-u-ine Nihonto o-yari (“big spear” in Japanese), re-engineered with some Japanese sword parts into a sword by some islander(?), but where, and any guesses as to when? The shape of the handle, relatively simple carving and zoomorphic element make me think Filipino, but I am by no means familiar with SE Asian stuff and would like to hear other opinions, and has anyone seen other items of similar mixed heritage? Attached Images

14th July 2008, 02:17 AM	#2
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	I would say definitely a composite piece, maybe fake maybe from left over or captured parts. Do the parts look and feel real ? It has a philippines feel to me also. I cannot say why but something about it makes me think of a sansibar. I have no conscious basis for that, so its just a thought. I would love to handle this piece. Last edited by RhysMichael; 14th July 2008 at 01:50 PM.

14th July 2008, 09:10 AM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hachiwara I under stand it to be a Hachiwara or Japanese helmety breaker. More often than not, they do resemble a Jitte but also come in a plain curved, "rod" for want of a better word with no protrusion to catch blades. Horn handles are very common too, I have read it is used as a left handed parrying devise as well. I though it looked composite, but from images that I have seen over the years though it could be the real deal too. I hope this gives some direction to those interested. regards Gav

14th July 2008, 11:26 PM	#5
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Far outside my range of study but I thought haciwara looked like this http://www.liongate-armsandarmour.co...25-1_small.jpg I thought Hachiwara and Tekken did not have edges as such where this blade does look like a slightly bent omi no yari http://www.ncjsc.org/gloss_yari.htm Below is an omi no yari Attached Images Last edited by RhysMichael; 14th July 2008 at 11:51 PM.

14th July 2008, 04:46 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Strikes me as a Philippine modification too . I'd like to see details of the base of the spear . An O Yari would seem a strange thing to find in the Philippines; I can see NCO blades etc. , but a Yari ? Would something like that go on campaign ?

31st July 2008, 11:51 AM	#7
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 913	This yari also lost its long tang: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000158.html

31st July 2008, 06:38 PM	#8
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	Interesting Yarifish, Lee! The carving’s stylized realism incline me to agree with the trend of the thread in thinking it was modified somewhere close in to Japan. I don’t think I have ever seen a fish face carved quite like that one, if I do I’ll let you know. Gav, if the auction photo above isn’t making it clear, you’ll have to take my word for it – there is no resemblance to a hachiwara in the form of this item. The curve of the blade was damage done long after the piece had ended its useful life, the associated edge damage is very fresh and indicates five or six strong swipes at an immovable object in the hands of someone unfamiliar with edged weapons; a cluster of them too close to the grip with a few wild blows as the destroyer found his range. Really, more tragic than the cut down tang. Evidently, the spear saw significant service as a sword, the forward edge has been re-sharpened enough to bring it a sixteenth of an inch (1.2mm) closer to the ridge than the back edge in the area of the center of percussion.

31st July 2008, 07:58 PM	#9
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Jeff is it worth trying to rework that blade and straighten it out again before you polish it?

1st August 2008, 06:17 PM	#10
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	It is to me, and it would need to be straightened to do the polishing correctly. Since the major warps were unfairly installed (if I’m reading the damage correctly, of course), and since with Japanese blades you can pin down the time and place of manufacture, even the individual smith, by looking in to the polished steel – it feels like the right thing to do. It can be a risky operation, since you never know when metal fatigue will cause a blade with a long history of flexing to snap, but I was able to coax it through and it is mostly straight now, just a couple minor adjustments left.

1st August 2008, 06:30 PM	#11
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Nice! Are you going to try and heat treat it again, or leave well-enough alone? What about the mountings? Love to see pics when you get a polish going. Any chance you could take pics along the way as you restore it?