Scottish Dirk

[templarnight]

Hi.
I have just bought this Dirk and am looking for some thoughts on its date. My library hasn't got much about these and the net hasn't helped.
I'm hoping it's 18th century.
Thanks for any thoughts

[Battara]

I'm sorry to say but it looks more like the first quarter or first third of the 19th century.

Still a nice piece.

[templarnight]

Thanks for your reply. My thoughts were that the level of patination looked earlier. Can you give any references online?

[Jim McDougall]

I have to say I very much agree with Battara's assessment on this very interesting example of Scottish dirk. The knotwork intended to represent the thistle is unusual in its composition and shape, and lacks the brass or metal studs usually seen in this feature, which only adds to the unique nature of this piece
The blade seems more in line with the period suggested, and I would say this would extend even into mid 19th c.

What is most curious, and intriguing, is that odd fixture atop the pommel where normally there would be a capstan or a stone (usually cairngorm).
This four pronged feature is termed a 'high square turreted nut' or of that form. The only example of one of these I have found was in James Wallace (The Scottish Sword and Dirk" , 1970, #59), and this was on a rather anomalous example dated c. 1713 with a cut down sword blade.

This unusual feature inclines me to think of the very traditional nature of this piece which does not correspond to the usual styles followed. The character of the simple brass mounts, the scabbard with its fork (not all had small knives also) to me suggest the 'romantic' period of Scottish heritage. This was fueled by the works of Scott and Burns as well as the contrivances of the so called 'Sobieski Stuart brothers which led to a furor of fashion, style and of course weaponry in the mid 1800s .

On line there is good information in the MyArmoury site ' The Scottish Dirk',
and by one of the foremost authorities, the title
"The Scottish Dirk" by James Forman.

[templarnight]

Thanks Jim.
I will give my observations. The patination on the grip is very deep and feels like it would be on a 18th and not 19th century piece. Also the leather scabbard and the stitching thereon is exactly as I would see on an 18th century 1796 sword. It doesn't at all feel like 19th century leather.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by templarnight

Thanks Jim.
I will give my observations. The patination on the grip is very deep and feels like it would be on a 18th and not 19th century piece. Also the leather scabbard and the stitching thereon is exactly as I would see on an 18th century 1796 sword. It doesn't at all feel like 19th century leather.

I defer to your observations as you have the advantage of holding the piece, and would say that is quite possible. There are really no comparable examples in my scope which correspond, as I noted, this one seems unusual.
Its always good to be able to compare notes with the poster of the item, ad thereby learn more from details.
Truthfully, I have virtually no experience on these dirks so I appreciate the feedback.
Any thoughts on that curious pommel nut?

Thinking further, which 1796 stitching would you be referring to?
Remember that the 18th century only lasted 4 years, and these patterns were just barely in production by 1800. Naturally the Napoleonic campaigns helped accelerate that. The only swords with stitching were of course some officers and naval, but then by the turn of the century the much maligned 1796 dress sword.
Regardless, that these were produced in progressive volume into the century would place this example in pretty much the same period that Battara suggested c. 1800-25.
The one thing that really says 18th century to me is that pommel nut, so I would like to find more on that characteristic.
The blade on this seems remarkably clean, it seems most of the 18th century blades are either cut down sword blades or differently fullered. As this seems military by the nature of the fittings on the hilt, and the Scottish regiments were it seems less 'attended to' as they developed in the 18th c. (after arms proscriptions after the '45) it is unclear what dirks might have been like.
I think it was the stark cutting of the scabbard mounts which made me think later and to the period in Great Britain I noted with wide fascination with Scottish things . It would seem earlier mounts would be more flourished.
Just more thoughts and look forward to more of yours.