Translation needed on Kilij koftgari

erlikhan · 28th May 2005, 09:11 AM

This ebay auction ended yesterday. Closing price made me wonder about the inscriptions on the blade. I request friends with Arabic knowledge to translate it or just to convert to Latin alphabet
regards

M.carter · 28th May 2005, 01:59 PM

Hi Erlikhan,

In the first pic you posted, from top:

"There is only one god"

"There is no man better than Ali, and no sword better than Thulfiqar"

The third cartouche, I need a closer pic.

On the other side of the blade (2nd pic):

"What god wills"/ "God wills it"

Rick · 28th May 2005, 04:14 PM

Mark ?

M.carter · 28th May 2005, 06:09 PM

Thats better. "Muhammad Rasoul Allah"

"Muhammad is the messenger of God"

erlikhan · 29th May 2005, 01:04 AM

I see. So nothing personal like an owner name. Thank you.
regards

Andrew · 29th May 2005, 07:06 AM

Interesting to see a Star of David (Seal of Solomon?) in that last cartouche. How old is this weapon? Is this common?

Aqtai · 30th May 2005, 10:16 PM

Although this sword is a Kilij, I think the maker and/or the owner must have been Shi'i. As it is Shi'ites who have a great reverance for Ali, the nephew of the Prophet Muhammad. A Sunni Owner/Swordsmith would have just stuck to 'La Ilaha Illa Allah, Muhammad Rassool Allah". 'There is no god but God, Muhammad is the messenger of God'.

I also believe that six pointed stars are a common symbol in geometric arabesques. Indeed stars in General are frequently shown in Arabesque patterns.

Rivkin · 30th May 2005, 11:21 PM

I would disagree with Shia attribution - Caucasus is almost entirely Sunni (and the only country with a very significant Shia influence is christian Armenia), but "No sword, but Zulfakar, no warrior but Ali" and other similar slogans are _very_ popular among caucasian smiths - at first it seemed strange to me as well, and I thought it to be something that was inherited through Iranian occupation of Dagestan, however now I just accept it as a fact that I don't know how to explain.

Concerning semitic religions - I would not say so, they are quite different (when you talk about Baal worshipping vs. Islam for example etc.). It's more the fact that islam, christianty and judaism simple descend from one religion - judaism or if you are a muslim, like those who tought me, - descend from the original islam, later changed by jews and christians.

Therefore some of the symbolics is being shared, but specifically when it comes to the hexagram:

1. It's a magical symbol, for Solomon was considered to command the multitudes of demons.

2. It's extremely easy to draw, and therefore it has a great advantage over other symbols - if you read the bible, there are many symbols god specifically designated to identify jewish tribes, but none of them is in use even by the jews today, because they are extremely hard to draw.
Same story with the crescent and the cross - these symbols became most popular in part because they are very easy to draw.
Same goes for soviet and nazi symbolics - those were selected with one specific requirement - they should be easy to draw for the masses (and what can be easier than a pentagramm or a zig-rune ?)

3. Another solomonic symbol is a pentagramm, and this symbol is traditionally specifically associated with the control over the world of demons, and therefore even more related to the occult.

erlikhan · 31st May 2005, 12:50 AM

To me, Shia relation is not surprizing at all, as in history much more Turks in Turkey were Alevi which is close to Shia about love to Ali, and all Azerbaijan population and Iran Azeris are still shia. Kilij was used not only by sunni Turks but all of these. It could easily be ordered by an shia customer and be decorated according to his wishes. Plus, the love of shiites to Ali doesnt mean that Sunnis hate him or dont respect him. I think especially his bravery,legendary sword and wars were famous and admired among all in past. This sympathy can be an addition to the explanation of the popularity of these slogans.

28th May 2005, 09:11 AM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Translation needed on Kilij koftgari This ebay auction ended yesterday. Closing price made me wonder about the inscriptions on the blade. I request friends with Arabic knowledge to translate it or just to convert to Latin alphabet regards Attached Images Last edited by erlikhan; 28th May 2005 at 11:28 AM.

28th May 2005, 04:14 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Any better ? Mark ? Attached Images

28th May 2005, 01:59 PM	#2
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Hi Erlikhan, In the first pic you posted, from top: "There is only one god" "There is no man better than Ali, and no sword better than Thulfiqar" The third cartouche, I need a closer pic. On the other side of the blade (2nd pic): "What god wills"/ "God wills it"

28th May 2005, 06:09 PM	#4
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Thats better. "Muhammad Rasoul Allah" "Muhammad is the messenger of God"

29th May 2005, 01:04 AM	#5
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I see. So nothing personal like an owner name. Thank you. regards

29th May 2005, 07:06 AM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Interesting to see a Star of David (Seal of Solomon?) in that last cartouche. How old is this weapon? Is this common?

30th May 2005, 10:16 PM	#7
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Although this sword is a Kilij, I think the maker and/or the owner must have been Shi'i. As it is Shi'ites who have a great reverance for Ali, the nephew of the Prophet Muhammad. A Sunni Owner/Swordsmith would have just stuck to 'La Ilaha Illa Allah, Muhammad Rassool Allah". 'There is no god but God, Muhammad is the messenger of God'. I also believe that six pointed stars are a common symbol in geometric arabesques. Indeed stars in General are frequently shown in Arabesque patterns.

30th May 2005, 11:21 PM	#8
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I would disagree with Shia attribution - Caucasus is almost entirely Sunni (and the only country with a very significant Shia influence is christian Armenia), but "No sword, but Zulfakar, no warrior but Ali" and other similar slogans are _very_ popular among caucasian smiths - at first it seemed strange to me as well, and I thought it to be something that was inherited through Iranian occupation of Dagestan, however now I just accept it as a fact that I don't know how to explain. Concerning semitic religions - I would not say so, they are quite different (when you talk about Baal worshipping vs. Islam for example etc.). It's more the fact that islam, christianty and judaism simple descend from one religion - judaism or if you are a muslim, like those who tought me, - descend from the original islam, later changed by jews and christians. Therefore some of the symbolics is being shared, but specifically when it comes to the hexagram: 1. It's a magical symbol, for Solomon was considered to command the multitudes of demons. 2. It's extremely easy to draw, and therefore it has a great advantage over other symbols - if you read the bible, there are many symbols god specifically designated to identify jewish tribes, but none of them is in use even by the jews today, because they are extremely hard to draw. Same story with the crescent and the cross - these symbols became most popular in part because they are very easy to draw. Same goes for soviet and nazi symbolics - those were selected with one specific requirement - they should be easy to draw for the masses (and what can be easier than a pentagramm or a zig-rune ?) 3. Another solomonic symbol is a pentagramm, and this symbol is traditionally specifically associated with the control over the world of demons, and therefore even more related to the occult.

31st May 2005, 12:50 AM	#9
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	To me, Shia relation is not surprizing at all, as in history much more Turks in Turkey were Alevi which is close to Shia about love to Ali, and all Azerbaijan population and Iran Azeris are still shia. Kilij was used not only by sunni Turks but all of these. It could easily be ordered by an shia customer and be decorated according to his wishes. Plus, the love of shiites to Ali doesnt mean that Sunnis hate him or dont respect him. I think especially his bravery,legendary sword and wars were famous and admired among all in past. This sympathy can be an addition to the explanation of the popularity of these slogans.