Pommel Ring on British Dragoon Swords 18th c.

Jim McDougall · 1st December 2022, 05:20 PM

With the dragoon swords that evolved for British cavalry from the basket hilt forms of Scotland in the first part of the 18th century, it seems that the guard shields were welded to a ring, which then mounted UNDER the pommel in many cases.

I have a stirrup hilt 'four slot' sword which has this ring guard type setup (I posted it about two years ago) but did not resolve more on this topic.
What I am wondering is when did this means of securing the guard end? and go to the knuckleguard or guard assembly going into the side of the pommel begin?

It seems by 1759 these type swords were being made by Jeffries in London, with the pommel side mount (apparently number of these were made in 1759 for 21st Light Dragoons, who disbanded in 1763).
These were apparently produced in 1756 as a 'test pattern'? for light dragoon regiments being proposed, and I believe first issued to the 15th Light Dragoons.

As this has the pommel ring fixture, I am wondering if possibly this one might have been of these early prototypes (loosely termed pattern 1756)?

In Belvoir Castle, the swords of the 21st Light Dragoons are displayed in a circular panoply, and are of the form described of the 1759 with the pommel side mount. (thanks to Bryce for the photo).

In 1778, the American swordsmith POTTER made cavalry swords designed after these British light dragoon types, and notably included the pommel ring method.

As always, Bryce, Radboud, Will, Glen, I would really appreciate insights.

Radboud · 2nd December 2022, 01:33 AM

An interesting sword, are you sure that the unique pommel ring isn't unique to the American-made example?

It might be me, but I don't see it represented in any of the other photos you post. It looks like on those, the guard terminates in the pommel.

Possibly an American variation? I'll see if I can dig up similar examples in my copy of George C Neumanns' book.

Jim McDougall · 2nd December 2022, 03:10 AM

No, the American (Potter) in 1778 was unusual in copying the earlier British form. These rings were on many British basket hilt types shown in Mazansky, Darling, Neumann et al. up to about mid 1750s it would seem. That was why I was showing these other examples 1759+ as they no longer had the ring.

I got this sword in London about 1978.

Will M · 2nd December 2022, 03:05 AM

These pre 1788p swords become less likely to have a fixed beginning or end date for use of the ring for the guard.
I have a British 17760's to 1770's cavalry sword with the ring to secure the guard.

Jim McDougall · 2nd December 2022, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will M

These pre 1788p swords become less likely to have a fixed beginning or end date for use of the ring for the guard.
I have a British 17760's to 1770's cavalry sword with the ring to secure the guard.

Thanks Will, Thats what I suspected, that there would be some cases of holdouts, but in periods up to 1750s, there was a propensity for the ring on the developed basket hilt types. My example seems unusual in having the ring as it is of course a stirrup hilt, simple guard.

Will M · 2nd December 2022, 03:35 PM

The ring is a stronger connection and would add time to the manufacturing and therefore cost. Your sword is possibly from a maker that had not made any other form and he stuck to what he knew worked?

Jim McDougall · 2nd December 2022, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will M

The ring is a stronger connection and would add time to the manufacturing and therefore cost. Your sword is possibly from a maker that had not made any other form and he stuck to what he knew worked?

That makes sense, perhaps Jeffries, who was known making British dragoon hilt swords might have followed that course, but it changed as he is known to have produced the '1759' patterns.

Radboud · 3rd December 2022, 12:53 AM

Interesting, thank you for the share. It looks like a transitional design from the ‘screw in the pommel’ to the later, simpler join of the slot-hilts you show.

I hadn’t noticed it before, so went back to my catalogue of basket hilt photos and you can almost see the transition of the earlier ribbon hilts to these ring joins and later ones that follow.

Will M · 10th December 2022, 03:09 AM

Just a conjecture, that different sword fighting produced different attachment methods with some needing to be stronger. I like to think that Scots punch harder using their hilts.

Hotspur · 10th December 2022, 03:52 PM

Potter

https://americansocietyofarmscollect...h-Behind-t.pdf

AR=American Revolution

Cheers
GC

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2022, 05:22 PM

Glen,
I had recalled this article, which was published also in "Man at Arms" magazine, and have been frantically trying to find it......so THANK YOU so much.

The author, Erik Goldstein, placed one of the most resounding statements in the world of arms study:

"...complacency with long held and extensively published notions has all too often stood in the way of the true understanding of a particular weapon and its importance to history".

That is the very reason behind the lifetime of obsessive research I have spent, and thankfully shared by you and so many of the guys here.

Will, that is a perspective I had not thought of. However these rings in the structural circumstance I am referring to seem invariably on British dragoon swords....not directly Scottish.

Radboud · 11th December 2022, 10:50 PM

I was looking through my reference books (Bezdek, Wilkinson and Robson) on an unrelated topic, they show several illustrations of sword hilts with these pommel rings on cavalry swords that they date as late as the 1790s.

Looking at a couple of the basket hilts, one example was even dated into the early 1800s.

Jim McDougall · 12th December 2022, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radboud

I was looking through my reference books (Bezdek, Wilkinson and Robson) on an unrelated topic, they show several illustrations of sword hilts with these pommel rings on cavalry swords that they date as late as the 1790s.

Looking at a couple of the basket hilts, one example was even dated into the early 1800s.

Interesting, which ones? I have the books, pages, item #.

Will M · 13th December 2022, 03:25 AM

I found this picture in Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting but not the RA sword I gave the link to though I should come across it.

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2022, 05:02 AM

Thank you Will, this publication was one of my favorites, and Jim Gooding, the publisher, was a great guy. Sadly after he was gone, it ended. The issues are virtually treasure.
This is an excellent example, and again the 'pommel ring' clearly seen.
Interesting is the typical straight blade with this single back fuller typical of the period and it seems turned up on most forms of hangers, cutlasses and of course these basket hilts.
The fluer de lis is seen on many blades of this type (as found on some of the blades from the terrible Twickenham fence with Culloden blades) and from late 1730s-40s.

This is my example of a dragoon of that period, with fluer de lis, but in this case the guard attached in the 'Scottish' manner rather than pommel ring, which of course shows that one method was not exclusive to these sword variations.

Will M · 13th December 2022, 04:49 PM

Jim that is a nice earlier sword and has never been disassembled. I find too many unknowns are in swords with recent disassembly.

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2022, 06:33 PM

Thank you so much Will. Actually when I got it (back in the70s) I was putting together a group of Scottish basket hilts. This one was a puzzle to me with shorter blade, shields were plain, no piercings etc.and then, I had no idea on it. In later years of course I was delighted to find out more !

Will M · 13th December 2022, 06:43 PM

Jim I wish I had interest in the 70's with swords. The internet has changed much for good and bad. Much information you can easily find now without travelling to the UK. Information has also increased the value of may swords by placing provenance to them. Aslo more interest in collecting today with more collectors and the same amount of antique items. I used to get lucky buying swords at auction that had poor description and bad photos. Now all eyes are on them. Recently I've had more luck at militaria shows in Ontario but the quantity and selection is not nearly what the UK has.
Most collecting here begins around the War of 1812 and onward.

1st December 2022, 05:20 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Pommel Ring on British Dragoon Swords 18th c. With the dragoon swords that evolved for British cavalry from the basket hilt forms of Scotland in the first part of the 18th century, it seems that the guard shields were welded to a ring, which then mounted UNDER the pommel in many cases. I have a stirrup hilt 'four slot' sword which has this ring guard type setup (I posted it about two years ago) but did not resolve more on this topic. What I am wondering is when did this means of securing the guard end? and go to the knuckleguard or guard assembly going into the side of the pommel begin? It seems by 1759 these type swords were being made by Jeffries in London, with the pommel side mount (apparently number of these were made in 1759 for 21st Light Dragoons, who disbanded in 1763). These were apparently produced in 1756 as a 'test pattern'? for light dragoon regiments being proposed, and I believe first issued to the 15th Light Dragoons. As this has the pommel ring fixture, I am wondering if possibly this one might have been of these early prototypes (loosely termed pattern 1756)? In Belvoir Castle, the swords of the 21st Light Dragoons are displayed in a circular panoply, and are of the form described of the 1759 with the pommel side mount. (thanks to Bryce for the photo). In 1778, the American swordsmith POTTER made cavalry swords designed after these British light dragoon types, and notably included the pommel ring method. As always, Bryce, Radboud, Will, Glen, I would really appreciate insights. Attached Images

2nd December 2022, 03:10 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	No, the American (Potter) in 1778 was unusual in copying the earlier British form. These rings were on many British basket hilt types shown in Mazansky, Darling, Neumann et al. up to about mid 1750s it would seem. That was why I was showing these other examples 1759+ as they no longer had the ring. I got this sword in London about 1978. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 2nd December 2022 at 04:21 AM.

2nd December 2022, 03:05 AM	#4
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	These pre 1788p swords become less likely to have a fixed beginning or end date for use of the ring for the guard. I have a British 17760's to 1770's cavalry sword with the ring to secure the guard. Attached Images

3rd December 2022, 12:53 AM	#8
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 261	Interesting, thank you for the share. It looks like a transitional design from the ‘screw in the pommel’ to the later, simpler join of the slot-hilts you show. I hadn’t noticed it before, so went back to my catalogue of basket hilt photos and you can almost see the transition of the earlier ribbon hilts to these ring joins and later ones that follow. Attached Images

13th December 2022, 03:25 AM	#14
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	I found this picture in Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting but not the RA sword I gave the link to though I should come across it. Attached Images

2nd December 2022, 01:33 AM	#2
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 261	An interesting sword, are you sure that the unique pommel ring isn't unique to the American-made example? It might be me, but I don't see it represented in any of the other photos you post. It looks like on those, the guard terminates in the pommel. Possibly an American variation? I'll see if I can dig up similar examples in my copy of George C Neumanns' book.

2nd December 2022, 03:35 PM	#6
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	The ring is a stronger connection and would add time to the manufacturing and therefore cost. Your sword is possibly from a maker that had not made any other form and he stuck to what he knew worked?

10th December 2022, 03:09 AM	#9
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	Just a conjecture, that different sword fighting produced different attachment methods with some needing to be stronger. I like to think that Scots punch harder using their hilts.

10th December 2022, 03:52 PM	#10
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	Potter https://americansocietyofarmscollect...h-Behind-t.pdf AR=American Revolution Cheers GC

10th December 2022, 05:22 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Glen, I had recalled this article, which was published also in "Man at Arms" magazine, and have been frantically trying to find it......so THANK YOU so much. The author, Erik Goldstein, placed one of the most resounding statements in the world of arms study: "...complacency with long held and extensively published notions has all too often stood in the way of the true understanding of a particular weapon and its importance to history". That is the very reason behind the lifetime of obsessive research I have spent, and thankfully shared by you and so many of the guys here. Will, that is a perspective I had not thought of. However these rings in the structural circumstance I am referring to seem invariably on British dragoon swords....not directly Scottish.

11th December 2022, 10:50 PM	#12
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 261	I was looking through my reference books (Bezdek, Wilkinson and Robson) on an unrelated topic, they show several illustrations of sword hilts with these pommel rings on cavalry swords that they date as late as the 1790s. Looking at a couple of the basket hilts, one example was even dated into the early 1800s.

13th December 2022, 05:02 AM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Thank you Will, this publication was one of my favorites, and Jim Gooding, the publisher, was a great guy. Sadly after he was gone, it ended. The issues are virtually treasure. This is an excellent example, and again the 'pommel ring' clearly seen. Interesting is the typical straight blade with this single back fuller typical of the period and it seems turned up on most forms of hangers, cutlasses and of course these basket hilts. The fluer de lis is seen on many blades of this type (as found on some of the blades from the terrible Twickenham fence with Culloden blades) and from late 1730s-40s. This is my example of a dragoon of that period, with fluer de lis, but in this case the guard attached in the 'Scottish' manner rather than pommel ring, which of course shows that one method was not exclusive to these sword variations. Attached Images

13th December 2022, 04:49 PM	#16
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	Jim that is a nice earlier sword and has never been disassembled. I find too many unknowns are in swords with recent disassembly.

13th December 2022, 06:33 PM	#17
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Thank you so much Will. Actually when I got it (back in the70s) I was putting together a group of Scottish basket hilts. This one was a puzzle to me with shorter blade, shields were plain, no piercings etc.and then, I had no idea on it. In later years of course I was delighted to find out more !

13th December 2022, 06:43 PM	#18
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	Jim I wish I had interest in the 70's with swords. The internet has changed much for good and bad. Much information you can easily find now without travelling to the UK. Information has also increased the value of may swords by placing provenance to them. Aslo more interest in collecting today with more collectors and the same amount of antique items. I used to get lucky buying swords at auction that had poor description and bad photos. Now all eyes are on them. Recently I've had more luck at militaria shows in Ontario but the quantity and selection is not nearly what the UK has. Most collecting here begins around the War of 1812 and onward.