a puzzle

NeilUK · 28th July 2024, 05:32 PM

I recently was bequeathed by a friend, now sadly dead, a most unusual socket sword bayonet. Overall its length is 81.5cm, with a blade of 69cm, and that despite the loss of its point. The blade is back edged with a narrow fuller for 3/4 of its length just in from the back. The blade has a single mark - a crown over the number '2', a standard British government acceptance mark. The socket is marked '11' and '81' which suggests Company 11, rack number 81. I have been able to discover that it is probably a Pioneer sword converted into a bayonet, hence the extreme length. What do the edged weapon experts think?
I have no information as to its provenance, my friend had never mentioned it and his family know nothing about it.
Neil

NeilUK · 20th August 2024, 07:19 PM

I am a bit surprised that this most unusual bayonet (69cm blade) has not inspired a single comment or expression of interest. There is still time to comment!
Neil

10thRoyal · 20th August 2024, 08:33 PM

In my opinion it looks like a bayonet for an Indian Brown Bess. The spring on the socket seems to be pretty standard for that type. Maybe EIC?

Jim McDougall · 22nd August 2024, 10:13 PM

I have no expertise on bayonets, but have a couple of references I was able to dig out.
As 10th has noted, that spring catch is exactly right for EIC Brown Bess c.1800-1805 ("Collectors Pictorial Book of Bayonets", F.Stephens, 1971. #31).

However this is entirely an anomaly, and that catch is most of what corresponds to the EIC example.
There is the recent book, "Socket Bayonets" by Graham Priest (2016) which is an intriguing insight into these bayonets which offers information not in the venerable old references.

One thing I notice in the markings on the socket......supposedly 11 over 81, in accord with rack numbers often seen, however.....these characters look more like Roman numerals II rather than 11 (note serifs).

The '81' also seemed more like letters than numbers.
In the Priest book, I was astounded to see the example 98 (p.51) shown as a bayonet from a British volunteer unit from around 1790(?) .
LOOK AT THE CHARACTERS! very similar, looks like an 18 (it is noted only 18 made).
This bayonet obviously looks nothing like yours, but that marking is compelling.
In this period 1790s in England, there was a great deal of worry about French invasion, and there were numbers of militia, volunteer units formed, for which records are pretty scarce.

With the key element of the EIC type spring catch, it is tempting to think this might have been some sort of innovation in accord with the many changes in firearms design etc. of the time.

The view mark is in accord with the crown over numeral used 1796-1820 (after that letters were added, Robson, 1975, p.191).

It is unusual to see a back fuller on a blade, which seems entirely out of the norm with the triangular socket bayonets, and I am unclear on what sort of pioneer sword might be source for a host blade, or why one would be used for a munitions grade bayonet. There was however a great deal of artisan 'for the cause' work with people in various trades doing other work unrelated to their trade.

Could the '18' (?) be letters for some local unit, S.I. and the II the unit number? Then the MOST unusual blade shape.

These are the pieces of the puzzle, and all we can do is speculate at this point. One thing for sure, this is an anomaly with potential for some remarkable history!

NeilUK · 31st August 2024, 07:19 PM

Thanks for the extra info, Jim. It helps us along the road a bit more even if we haven't yet reached a conclusion.
Neil

Jim McDougall · 31st August 2024, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilUK

Thanks for the extra info, Jim. It helps us along the road a bit more even if we haven't yet reached a conclusion.
Neil

You bet Neil! I felt kinda the same way....these posts just sit there and nobody says anything. As I noted, I dont know a lot on bayonets...but Im not afraid of opening a book, searching online etc. there are so many resources these days.

The whole idea of this forum is to discuss, share ideas, investigate, discover, preserve history.....and I am grateful to those who DO participate.
I learned from this unusual bayonet you posted, so thank you.

These kinds of anomalies often remain unresolved, but imagine if this WAS one of those 18 made for British volunteers!!!

Three THOUSAND views.......only TWO responses, myself and 10th.......incredible.

28th July 2024, 05:32 PM	#1
NeilUK Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Scotland Posts: 125	a puzzle I recently was bequeathed by a friend, now sadly dead, a most unusual socket sword bayonet. Overall its length is 81.5cm, with a blade of 69cm, and that despite the loss of its point. The blade is back edged with a narrow fuller for 3/4 of its length just in from the back. The blade has a single mark - a crown over the number '2', a standard British government acceptance mark. The socket is marked '11' and '81' which suggests Company 11, rack number 81. I have been able to discover that it is probably a Pioneer sword converted into a bayonet, hence the extreme length. What do the edged weapon experts think? I have no information as to its provenance, my friend had never mentioned it and his family know nothing about it. Neil Attached Images

22nd August 2024, 10:13 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	I have no expertise on bayonets, but have a couple of references I was able to dig out. As 10th has noted, that spring catch is exactly right for EIC Brown Bess c.1800-1805 ("Collectors Pictorial Book of Bayonets", F.Stephens, 1971. #31). However this is entirely an anomaly, and that catch is most of what corresponds to the EIC example. There is the recent book, "Socket Bayonets" by Graham Priest (2016) which is an intriguing insight into these bayonets which offers information not in the venerable old references. One thing I notice in the markings on the socket......supposedly 11 over 81, in accord with rack numbers often seen, however.....these characters look more like Roman numerals II rather than 11 (note serifs). The '81' also seemed more like letters than numbers. In the Priest book, I was astounded to see the example 98 (p.51) shown as a bayonet from a British volunteer unit from around 1790(?) . LOOK AT THE CHARACTERS! very similar, looks like an 18 (it is noted only 18 made). This bayonet obviously looks nothing like yours, but that marking is compelling. In this period 1790s in England, there was a great deal of worry about French invasion, and there were numbers of militia, volunteer units formed, for which records are pretty scarce. With the key element of the EIC type spring catch, it is tempting to think this might have been some sort of innovation in accord with the many changes in firearms design etc. of the time. The view mark is in accord with the crown over numeral used 1796-1820 (after that letters were added, Robson, 1975, p.191). It is unusual to see a back fuller on a blade, which seems entirely out of the norm with the triangular socket bayonets, and I am unclear on what sort of pioneer sword might be source for a host blade, or why one would be used for a munitions grade bayonet. There was however a great deal of artisan 'for the cause' work with people in various trades doing other work unrelated to their trade. Could the '18' (?) be letters for some local unit, S.I. and the II the unit number? Then the MOST unusual blade shape. These are the pieces of the puzzle, and all we can do is speculate at this point. One thing for sure, this is an anomaly with potential for some remarkable history! Attached Images

20th August 2024, 07:19 PM	#2
NeilUK Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Scotland Posts: 125	I am a bit surprised that this most unusual bayonet (69cm blade) has not inspired a single comment or expression of interest. There is still time to comment! Neil

20th August 2024, 08:33 PM	#3
10thRoyal Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 78	In my opinion it looks like a bayonet for an Indian Brown Bess. The spring on the socket seems to be pretty standard for that type. Maybe EIC?

31st August 2024, 07:19 PM	#5
NeilUK Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Scotland Posts: 125	Thanks for the extra info, Jim. It helps us along the road a bit more even if we haven't yet reached a conclusion. Neil