Help Identify this Sword - (Talwar, Shamshir ?)

G S T · 21st November 2011, 07:16 PM

Hey All,

I bought this Sword in northern India about 2 years back, and since then i am trying to identify the origin of this sword. The following are the detailed attributes.

Blade - Made of Sukhela (mild Indian steel) and measures 32 inches long.
Full tang, Riveted to the Hilt and Jammed with Resin.

Hilt - Made of Barasingha (reindeer) Horn. The knuckle guard is attached to the quillon.
Thou the hilt has typical talwar features, but it lacks the bottom disc, and The lower 'beak' resembles that of a Shamshir.

The Overall design resembles the Indian Talwar, But The hilt and the curvature of the blade are two features which are unlike the Talwar. I have been trying to search for a similar sword but have not found one which looks like this one.

What could be the origin of this sword ?
has anyone seen a Sword like this before ?

Please provide your valuable inputs

Thanks
GST

___________

katana · 22nd November 2011, 05:04 PM

Hi GST,
I would say a shamshir blade ..... a deliberately modified or 're-used' damaged tulwar hilt with the disc/pommel missing ... and obviously horn slabs rivetted to the tang to complete the hilt.
I am saying shamshir blade due to the fact it does not have a rat-tailed or similar tang that the tulwar would have had.
Whether this was a later marriage ('bitsa' sword) or one born out of necessity and, therefore, part of its history isn't clear, I'm afraid.

Kind Regards David

Rick · 22nd November 2011, 06:27 PM

I see an Afghan influence in the hilt scales .

Stan S. · 22nd November 2011, 08:35 PM

The best way to tell tulwar from shamshir IMO is to look for the presence of a ricasso (the unsharpened area at the base of the blade). Ricasso on this type of blades is a unique feature identifying a sword as a tulwar. If the blade is sharpened evenly all the way to the hilt, it can be called a shamshir. From the pictures you provided, it does not appear that the ricasso is there but perhaps I am just not seeing it? The hilt shape. although not a typical one, definetely points at Indo Persia as a country of origin.

In conclusion I'd like to say that it is is a lovely and unusual sword you have there!

kronckew · 23rd November 2011, 12:53 AM

my initial impression (before reading the other replies) was/is afghani.

Atlantia · 23rd November 2011, 03:15 PM

I can't say with total certanty, but this style of hilt is in my experience a modern hybrid design. A way to spruce-up the simple steel Tulwar hilt and (i assumed) to make it more comfortable and widen it's appeal to modern buyers (including the export market).
I believe that the similar examples I've seen hail from Rajathan, N/N-W India.
If seen similar hilts described as being bone or camel bone.

That said, I can the others points about Afghan similarities and it wouldn't be much of a stretch to place it in Afghanistan and make it a 'Taliban Tulwar'.

Jim McDougall · 24th November 2011, 08:28 AM

GST welcome to the forum! and thanks for posting this unusual example...gotta admit I hadn't seen anything with reindeer horn before!
Totally agree with the consensus here, a tulwar which has been redone with this hilt to become a rather appealing unusual example, and most likely in Afghan regions.
A tulwar I would say.

21st November 2011, 07:16 PM	#1
G S T Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 2	Help Identify this Sword - (Talwar, Shamshir ?) Hey All, I bought this Sword in northern India about 2 years back, and since then i am trying to identify the origin of this sword. The following are the detailed attributes. Blade - Made of Sukhela (mild Indian steel) and measures 32 inches long. Full tang, Riveted to the Hilt and Jammed with Resin. Hilt - Made of Barasingha (reindeer) Horn. The knuckle guard is attached to the quillon. Thou the hilt has typical talwar features, but it lacks the bottom disc, and The lower 'beak' resembles that of a Shamshir. The Overall design resembles the Indian Talwar, But The hilt and the curvature of the blade are two features which are unlike the Talwar. I have been trying to search for a similar sword but have not found one which looks like this one. What could be the origin of this sword ? has anyone seen a Sword like this before ? Please provide your valuable inputs Thanks GST ___________ Attached Images

22nd November 2011, 05:04 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi GST, I would say a shamshir blade ..... a deliberately modified or 're-used' damaged tulwar hilt with the disc/pommel missing ... and obviously horn slabs rivetted to the tang to complete the hilt. I am saying shamshir blade due to the fact it does not have a rat-tailed or similar tang that the tulwar would have had. Whether this was a later marriage ('bitsa' sword) or one born out of necessity and, therefore, part of its history isn't clear, I'm afraid. Kind Regards David

22nd November 2011, 06:27 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I see an Afghan influence in the hilt scales .

22nd November 2011, 08:35 PM	#4
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	The best way to tell tulwar from shamshir IMO is to look for the presence of a ricasso (the unsharpened area at the base of the blade). Ricasso on this type of blades is a unique feature identifying a sword as a tulwar. If the blade is sharpened evenly all the way to the hilt, it can be called a shamshir. From the pictures you provided, it does not appear that the ricasso is there but perhaps I am just not seeing it? The hilt shape. although not a typical one, definetely points at Indo Persia as a country of origin. In conclusion I'd like to say that it is is a lovely and unusual sword you have there!

23rd November 2011, 12:53 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	my initial impression (before reading the other replies) was/is afghani.

23rd November 2011, 03:15 PM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I can't say with total certanty, but this style of hilt is in my experience a modern hybrid design. A way to spruce-up the simple steel Tulwar hilt and (i assumed) to make it more comfortable and widen it's appeal to modern buyers (including the export market). I believe that the similar examples I've seen hail from Rajathan, N/N-W India. If seen similar hilts described as being bone or camel bone. That said, I can the others points about Afghan similarities and it wouldn't be much of a stretch to place it in Afghanistan and make it a 'Taliban Tulwar'.

24th November 2011, 08:28 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	GST welcome to the forum! and thanks for posting this unusual example...gotta admit I hadn't seen anything with reindeer horn before! Totally agree with the consensus here, a tulwar which has been redone with this hilt to become a rather appealing unusual example, and most likely in Afghan regions. A tulwar I would say.