strange pamor

Marcokeris · 6th March 2011, 02:05 PM

During my last trip to Yogya this Cirebon keris with an unusual pamor met me.

Sajen · 6th March 2011, 02:21 PM

Very nice and interesting pamor! A very nice Cirebon keris, thank you for sharing.

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 6th March 2011, 08:53 PM

Residual lawe setukal.

Old Madura.

Hilt possibly Cirebon, wrongko Madura kacir, mendak Madura, blade Madura.

Sajen · 7th March 2011, 02:42 PM

Hello Alan,

isn't this wrongko not nearly the same form like shown in Jensen's kris disk at chapter 4, page 21, pic. 31d? I ever have thought that this wrongko form is attributed to old Cirebon / North coast Java.

Regards,

Detlef

GIO · 8th March 2011, 11:57 AM

Wonderful keris, Marco. Congratulations for your find.
Could you show the whole blade ?

A. G. Maisey · 8th March 2011, 12:33 PM

Yes Detlef, there are similarities.

My classification is based on what I have learnt from several tukang wrongko in Solo, and several salesmen from Madura.

In my opinion this wrongko appears to be a Madura kacir.

I have no problem at all if Mr. Jensen calls it Cirebon, and I also have no problem at all if anybody else wishes to call it Cirebon.

Jean · 9th March 2011, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Residual lawe setukal.

Old Madura.

Hilt possibly Cirebon, wrongko Madura kacir, mendak Madura, blade Madura.

Dear friends,
A similar kris from my collection, also supposedly from Northern Java but may be Madura? The blade is 36.5 cm long excluding the peksi. Was pamor Lawe Satukel common with old Madura blades? (I never saw one myself).
Best regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 9th March 2011, 08:38 PM

Jean, I have needed to play with your photo so that I could see the blade properly, sorry, but it is simply not possible for me to adequately assess a blade in any orientation other than the one I have placed your blade into.

This blade is a very typical Madura blade:- the gandhik that seems as if it is sloping towards the center of the blade, the gandhik shape which tends to be cone-like, the wispy kembang kacang, the straight, awkward gonjo, the less than elegant pawakan, the clumsy uneven waves, the long point, the coarse material. Everything I can see here is typical of an old Madura blade.

The mendak in the top photo is also typical Madura.

The hilt I am not sure of, it looks Cirebon, I could change my mind with it in my hand.

We now have two keris attributed to Cirebon/North Jawa that I understand to be from Madura.

Why?

In my opinion because for some people at the present time a Cirebon attribution is extremely desirable, and a Madura attribution is close to poison.

Say "Madura" and the price goes down.

Say "Cirebon" and the price goes up.

Say "North Jawa" and neither thing happens, and you're no lying, because Madura is a part of East Jawa, and lays north of Jawa.

It is absolutely certain that the people who sell keris in Jawa know more than anybody else about keris. Much more. But they do not give free lessons.

Jean, I don't think this pamor was all that common, at least I haven't seen a lot of examples of it. I have only one excellent example, and I can remember selling one.I've seen maybe two photos of one. This particular interpretation of lawe is pretty scarce.

Jean · 10th March 2011, 09:50 AM

Hello Alan,
Thank you for your very interesting and documented input, sorry I have no better pictures to show as the piece is not with me at present. The Ganesha hilt on the top picture is from Cirebon (I replaced it) and the mendak was replaced also so they are not original. This kris was found in Solo and it could originate from anywhere.
I take this opportunity to indicate that Teguh Iman Santosa from Yogyakarta is preparing a new book related to the various types of Northern Java krisses (focusing on the warangkas especially), I hope that it will be published soon.
Best regards
Jean

6th March 2011, 02:05 PM	#1
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	strange pamor During my last trip to Yogya this Cirebon keris with an unusual pamor met me. Attached Images

9th March 2011, 08:38 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	Jean, I have needed to play with your photo so that I could see the blade properly, sorry, but it is simply not possible for me to adequately assess a blade in any orientation other than the one I have placed your blade into. This blade is a very typical Madura blade:- the gandhik that seems as if it is sloping towards the center of the blade, the gandhik shape which tends to be cone-like, the wispy kembang kacang, the straight, awkward gonjo, the less than elegant pawakan, the clumsy uneven waves, the long point, the coarse material. Everything I can see here is typical of an old Madura blade. The mendak in the top photo is also typical Madura. The hilt I am not sure of, it looks Cirebon, I could change my mind with it in my hand. We now have two keris attributed to Cirebon/North Jawa that I understand to be from Madura. Why? In my opinion because for some people at the present time a Cirebon attribution is extremely desirable, and a Madura attribution is close to poison. Say "Madura" and the price goes down. Say "Cirebon" and the price goes up. Say "North Jawa" and neither thing happens, and you're no lying, because Madura is a part of East Jawa, and lays north of Jawa. It is absolutely certain that the people who sell keris in Jawa know more than anybody else about keris. Much more. But they do not give free lessons. Jean, I don't think this pamor was all that common, at least I haven't seen a lot of examples of it. I have only one excellent example, and I can remember selling one.I've seen maybe two photos of one. This particular interpretation of lawe is pretty scarce. Attached Images

6th March 2011, 02:21 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,769	Very nice and interesting pamor! A very nice Cirebon keris, thank you for sharing. Regards, Detlef

6th March 2011, 08:53 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	Residual lawe setukal. Old Madura. Hilt possibly Cirebon, wrongko Madura kacir, mendak Madura, blade Madura.

7th March 2011, 02:42 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,769	Hello Alan, isn't this wrongko not nearly the same form like shown in Jensen's kris disk at chapter 4, page 21, pic. 31d? I ever have thought that this wrongko form is attributed to old Cirebon / North coast Java. Regards, Detlef

8th March 2011, 11:57 AM	#5
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	Wonderful keris, Marco. Congratulations for your find. Could you show the whole blade ?

8th March 2011, 12:33 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	Yes Detlef, there are similarities. My classification is based on what I have learnt from several tukang wrongko in Solo, and several salesmen from Madura. In my opinion this wrongko appears to be a Madura kacir. I have no problem at all if Mr. Jensen calls it Cirebon, and I also have no problem at all if anybody else wishes to call it Cirebon.

10th March 2011, 09:50 AM	#9
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Thank you for your very interesting and documented input, sorry I have no better pictures to show as the piece is not with me at present. The Ganesha hilt on the top picture is from Cirebon (I replaced it) and the mendak was replaced also so they are not original. This kris was found in Solo and it could originate from anywhere. I take this opportunity to indicate that Teguh Iman Santosa from Yogyakarta is preparing a new book related to the various types of Northern Java krisses (focusing on the warangkas especially), I hope that it will be published soon. Best regards Jean