First Post, help identify

lgcal20ga · 15th September 2010, 03:26 AM

I found this sworn many, many years ago in my grandmothers attic. My Dad told me he brought it home from Europe at the end of WWII. I did some searching back then, in the library (this was long before the internet) and found a reference book that told me the makers mark was from a British Calvaryman's sworn circa WWI. On the right side of the blade, at the hilt, there are some letters that look like the last three are TER. Can't see what preceded that. I hope you can see the makers mark in the pictures. Any help would be greatly appreciated. The blade is 33.5 inches, fish skin grip. No other markings that I could find. The scabbard has been painted, so any marks on that are covered.

Thanks in advance for any help offered. And no, its not for sale. Been in the family for over sixty years, I think I'll keep it.

Larry

Ron Anderson · 15th September 2010, 02:45 PM

Hi

That is a British Heavy Cavalry Officer's Sword 1887 pattern.

So it was in use from 1887 until it got replaced in 1912 by a newer model.

If it was used in WW1 it would be unusual because by then there was a new pattern cavalry officer's sword. However, it is entirely possible that this cavalry officer was still using this older sword.

The name on the sword itself is probably the swordmaker's name. It looks like it might be something like CARTER, ????

It is a nice sword. Congratulations. They are not that commonly found anymore.

Jim McDougall · 15th September 2010, 10:41 PM

Hi Larry,
First of all welcome to the forum! and my praise and admiration for your declaration in wanting to keep this family treasure. I hope you will be reading this, as what you have there is indeed a treasure of sorts, and it would be great to learn more of where you dad was in WWII, as this sword has far more history to it than would commonly be thought.

Obviously at first glance, and with the fishskin grip and scroll type hilt, the immediate impression is of the relatively common, as noted, British heavy cavalry swords of 1887, frankly I was inclined to agree initially. However, some things set me off especially that curious stylized eagle at the base of the guard on the hilt. This is entirely atypical of the British hilt marks I have seen, which usually consist of number and letter issuance stamps.

Second, the parallel slots just forward of the scrolled quillon are something not seen in any of these British hilts, these were for sabre knots and were however seen on some European military swords, especially Imperial German.
Which brings me to the quillon scroll, which is furrowed rather than smooth as seen on the British examples.

Also, most British swords of this time were proofed, most commonly with the Star of Solomon device which enclosed either maker or vendor stamps.
This simply has a name stamp.

I checked in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" (Wagner, Prague, 1967) on p.241, #26, this very hilt is shown as a Hessian officers sabre, as used by the 115th-118th regiments officers for the Grand Duke of Hesse, Ernest Louis Charles Albert William (1868-1937). He was the grandson of Queen Victoria and Prince Albert, which somewhat explains the British influence here as well as close diplomatic ties with the House of Saxe-Coburg pre-WWI.

The Duke served in WWI, and these four infantry regiments were part of the 18th Army Corps, listed as the 1st through 4th Grand Ducal Hessian Bodyguard Infantry
According to Wagner (op.cit.p.241) these hilts were typically gilt, so it would be interesting to see if traces remain. The officers of the 115th were permitted to have thier hilts stamped (in this position) with a coronet and the Dukes initials. It would seem that the eagle was to one of the other three units, and if I am not mistaken, there is a H near the eagle.

The Duke ruled as the Grand Duke of Hesse and by Rhine from 1892-1918, which ended if course with WWI. I would say this places the date of this sword nicely within those years, and would explain that it was likely a trophy acquired during WWII. It is of course difficult to determine further the disposition, but I would say this is a rather rare and desirable sword from one of these elite units.

A truly fascinating sword, and I hope this information will be helpful in not only enjoying this heirloom, but pride in remembering your dad.

All the very best,
Jim

Rick · 16th September 2010, 01:23 AM

Out of the park, Jim .

Salaam !

Ron Anderson · 16th September 2010, 01:25 AM

Brilliant Jim

Or should I call you Sherlock?

I did notice those oddities too - the double slots, the eagle, the fact that the name of the ricasso was not standard, the fact that there was no etching on the blade.

They niggled at me, but I chose to ignore them.

Then there was the black-painted scabbard, which strictly speaking should have been an English leather field service scabbard.

Not to mention the absence of a proofmark. Not to mention that it was picked up as bringback by an American from the field of battle, and what would he doing with an ally's lost weapon.

In hindsight, none of it added up. However, it looked just like a cavalry officer's sword.

As I said, most impressive investigative work!

Atlantia · 16th September 2010, 01:37 AM

LOL, Now I looked and thought 'Thats a German Eagle'......
BUT JIM!
Great work! If only you could be 'downloaded' into a phone app!

I'd by a bloody I-Phone then

P.S. Sorry Larry,
Welcome to the forums!
Nice sword btw.

Best Wishes
Gene

Jim McDougall · 16th September 2010, 02:20 AM

Hey Guys, thanks so much!!!shucks it was nuthin'

Actually Gene, it was that Prussian eagle that got me just like you said, then I saw those sword knot slots.
Actually I looked at it and everything screamed British, and I hadn't really thought about the close connection in those days with Germany.
I really appreciate the kind words, it was fun research and Im glad I could present a more intriguing review on this, thanks for posting it Larry.

All the best,
Jim

15th September 2010, 03:26 AM	#1
lgcal20ga Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 5	First Post, help identify I found this sworn many, many years ago in my grandmothers attic. My Dad told me he brought it home from Europe at the end of WWII. I did some searching back then, in the library (this was long before the internet) and found a reference book that told me the makers mark was from a British Calvaryman's sworn circa WWI. On the right side of the blade, at the hilt, there are some letters that look like the last three are TER. Can't see what preceded that. I hope you can see the makers mark in the pictures. Any help would be greatly appreciated. The blade is 33.5 inches, fish skin grip. No other markings that I could find. The scabbard has been painted, so any marks on that are covered. Thanks in advance for any help offered. And no, its not for sale. Been in the family for over sixty years, I think I'll keep it. Larry Attached Images

15th September 2010, 10:41 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Larry, First of all welcome to the forum! and my praise and admiration for your declaration in wanting to keep this family treasure. I hope you will be reading this, as what you have there is indeed a treasure of sorts, and it would be great to learn more of where you dad was in WWII, as this sword has far more history to it than would commonly be thought. Obviously at first glance, and with the fishskin grip and scroll type hilt, the immediate impression is of the relatively common, as noted, British heavy cavalry swords of 1887, frankly I was inclined to agree initially. However, some things set me off especially that curious stylized eagle at the base of the guard on the hilt. This is entirely atypical of the British hilt marks I have seen, which usually consist of number and letter issuance stamps. Second, the parallel slots just forward of the scrolled quillon are something not seen in any of these British hilts, these were for sabre knots and were however seen on some European military swords, especially Imperial German. Which brings me to the quillon scroll, which is furrowed rather than smooth as seen on the British examples. Also, most British swords of this time were proofed, most commonly with the Star of Solomon device which enclosed either maker or vendor stamps. This simply has a name stamp. I checked in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" (Wagner, Prague, 1967) on p.241, #26, this very hilt is shown as a Hessian officers sabre, as used by the 115th-118th regiments officers for the Grand Duke of Hesse, Ernest Louis Charles Albert William (1868-1937). He was the grandson of Queen Victoria and Prince Albert, which somewhat explains the British influence here as well as close diplomatic ties with the House of Saxe-Coburg pre-WWI. The Duke served in WWI, and these four infantry regiments were part of the 18th Army Corps, listed as the 1st through 4th Grand Ducal Hessian Bodyguard Infantry According to Wagner (op.cit.p.241) these hilts were typically gilt, so it would be interesting to see if traces remain. The officers of the 115th were permitted to have thier hilts stamped (in this position) with a coronet and the Dukes initials. It would seem that the eagle was to one of the other three units, and if I am not mistaken, there is a H near the eagle. The Duke ruled as the Grand Duke of Hesse and by Rhine from 1892-1918, which ended if course with WWI. I would say this places the date of this sword nicely within those years, and would explain that it was likely a trophy acquired during WWII. It is of course difficult to determine further the disposition, but I would say this is a rather rare and desirable sword from one of these elite units. A truly fascinating sword, and I hope this information will be helpful in not only enjoying this heirloom, but pride in remembering your dad. All the very best, Jim Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 15th September 2010 at 10:57 PM.

15th September 2010, 02:45 PM	#2
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi That is a British Heavy Cavalry Officer's Sword 1887 pattern. So it was in use from 1887 until it got replaced in 1912 by a newer model. If it was used in WW1 it would be unusual because by then there was a new pattern cavalry officer's sword. However, it is entirely possible that this cavalry officer was still using this older sword. The name on the sword itself is probably the swordmaker's name. It looks like it might be something like CARTER, ???? It is a nice sword. Congratulations. They are not that commonly found anymore.

16th September 2010, 01:23 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Out of the park, Jim . Salaam !

16th September 2010, 01:25 AM	#5
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Brilliant Jim Or should I call you Sherlock? I did notice those oddities too - the double slots, the eagle, the fact that the name of the ricasso was not standard, the fact that there was no etching on the blade. They niggled at me, but I chose to ignore them. Then there was the black-painted scabbard, which strictly speaking should have been an English leather field service scabbard. Not to mention the absence of a proofmark. Not to mention that it was picked up as bringback by an American from the field of battle, and what would he doing with an ally's lost weapon. In hindsight, none of it added up. However, it looked just like a cavalry officer's sword. As I said, most impressive investigative work!

16th September 2010, 01:37 AM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	LOL, Now I looked and thought 'Thats a German Eagle'...... BUT JIM! Great work! If only you could be 'downloaded' into a phone app! I'd by a bloody I-Phone then P.S. Sorry Larry, Welcome to the forums! Nice sword btw. Best Wishes Gene

16th September 2010, 02:20 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hey Guys, thanks so much!!!shucks it was nuthin' Actually Gene, it was that Prussian eagle that got me just like you said, then I saw those sword knot slots. Actually I looked at it and everything screamed British, and I hadn't really thought about the close connection in those days with Germany. I really appreciate the kind words, it was fun research and Im glad I could present a more intriguing review on this, thanks for posting it Larry. All the best, Jim