Oddly constructed cutlass

M ELEY · 27th April 2010, 01:41 AM

Sorry to visit old ghosts, but after my success with that old Dutch sword, I'd thought I'd give this old one a try as well. It truly appears to be an original piece, meaning, I don't think it's a theatrical or blacksmith piece made for fun. The blade, I think, is older and possibly one of those old Rev War imported (poorer quality) blades. Note the steep swoop on the end & many of this type in Neumann's.

My quandry is the construction. It appears the blade tang was inserted in a corrigated/ribbed iron hollow grip, brass was poured into the space and the sheet guard was folded over the other end and brazed
into place. You can see the darkened brass where the blade intersects the guard/hilt. I have seen one other sword like this that was very similar to the m1803 Brit cutlass, with brass securing the blade near the guard. So, is this just a "one off', made in limited supply, or has anyone else seen a sword with similar construction? There is a very primitive cutlass in Neumanns that has it's hilt tightened with poured lead, creating primitive langets for it, but that one still has the tang passing through the end of the hilt and piened, so not exactly the same thing. Anyway, opinions?

broadaxe · 2nd May 2010, 09:32 PM

Are you sure it is brass indeed? Try to put a small magnet over it, or to make a small fine scratch in order to see the natural metal tone.
From here via the photo it sure looks like filled electric weld.

M ELEY · 3rd May 2010, 12:51 PM

I have a confession to make and I'm not proud of it (

), but the reason I know its brass is because I used a chemical to pickle its color black to match the rest of the sword. The brass was old and yellowed with age when I got it, but contrasted so smartly with the rest of the dark sword and looked like a wad of gum holding the blade in place, so...I altered it to look more appealing. No trickery on my part, just wanted to have a less ugly appearance. So the surface of the brass now looks "off". Unfortunately, I don't know what to do about returning it to its former state. I'm afraid I'll wash away the patina and then it really will look like a "put-together" sword, which I truly don't believe it is.

Does anyone have a suggestion of what I might do to remove the pickling to the brass??

Atlantia · 3rd May 2010, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Does anyone have a suggestion of what I might do to remove the pickling to the brass??

What did you use to colour the brass that dark?

M ELEY · 3rd May 2010, 11:31 PM

I used a commercial product I bought off the net. I can't remember its name, but it does work nicely. The less you leave it on, the lighter the patina. I used it to also darken a copper-wired small sword hilt (original sword, new wrap).

Yes, this piece has always troubled me in a way. Unfortunately, though, there might still be no closure on its exact origin due to its classification. Privateer swords, axes, pikes, etc, were often prinitive affairs and like espada ancha, were sometimes made from spare parts, older blades, etc. This can be seen again and again in naval pieces. If we assume it was a repair, was it one to fix the blade in modern times? Was it an old repair? Was it made this way from the start as a "one off"? Or is it a fake put together to deceive? I regret staining the brass nuw, because perhaps I might have considered chipping away the old brass to see if it truly held this anomolous blade in place at the guard or if its tang inserts into the hollowed guard and then filled with brass. Still, I welcome your opinions and need to see more pics of examples of "electric weld" to understand what they look like. Did they use brass for this process? I would think brass has a higher melting point than what they used to weld with??

kronckew · 4th May 2010, 09:28 AM

brazing happens at a lower temp. than welding. the brass filler metal melts at a significantly lower temp than the steel being joined. when used to produce a fillet where two surfaces meet at right angles it can look a bit like a proper weld. if you know someone who welds, he can probably tell by looking at it, the photos are a bit hard to tell. brazing is essentially like soldering where the filler melts and wets the joined metals which may be dissimilar to each other as well as the filler.

the much higher temp of an electric arc weld not only melts the filler but the base metal being joined it requires the filler as well as the two parts to be joined to be similar (ie. all 3 steel) and would seriously affect the heat treatment hardening/temper of a blade. the temp. used to braze while lower is also high enough to affect the temper.

i've not heard of tangs being held into iron grips by melted and poured brass, i suspect if anything they would have used lead. cutlers cement (tar or rosin mixed with brick dust and occasionally a fibrous material) was used for similar purposes at even lower temperatures.

this site has info on arc welding, as well as brazing and other welding/brazing methods.

as everything is covered up by the brass, an xray may be the only way to tell what is underneath. the xray will likely cost more that the item did tho. or you could take it and give it a good whack against a tree & see what it looks like when it breaks loose tho this somewhat detracts from it's appearence until you get it unbent and re-brazed anyway

.

modern electric welders like MIG and TIG types can also braze with a brass based filler, again at lower temp.

Atlantia · 4th May 2010, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I used a commercial product I bought off the net. I can't remember its name, but it does work nicely. The less you leave it on, the lighter the patina. I used it to also darken a copper-wired small sword hilt (original sword, new wrap).

Yes, this piece has always troubled me in a way. Unfortunately, though, there might still be no closure on its exact origin due to its classification. Privateer swords, axes, pikes, etc, were often prinitive affairs and like espada ancha, were sometimes made from spare parts, older blades, etc. This can be seen again and again in naval pieces. If we assume it was a repair, was it one to fix the blade in modern times? Was it an old repair? Was it made this way from the start as a "one off"? Or is it a fake put together to deceive? I regret staining the brass nuw, because perhaps I might have considered chipping away the old brass to see if it truly held this anomolous blade in place at the guard or if its tang inserts into the hollowed guard and then filled with brass. Still, I welcome your opinions and need to see more pics of examples of "electric weld" to understand what they look like. Did they use brass for this process? I would think brass has a higher melting point than what they used to weld with??

Difficult to say what'll remove it best, but I'd try something that's mild and wet, rather than just scraping or using a paste.
I'd say that a wet metal-polishing wadding like 'duraglit' or that cheap version (which is a freaking godsend for lots of aplications) called 'Duzzit metal polish wadding' which is by '151 products ltd'.
That stuff is to mild to really touch steel but will take all kinds of crap off of brass/bronze without abrading it.

kronckew · 3rd May 2010, 12:53 PM

photos look like it was arc welded, broken at the hilt & 'fixed'? the blade does not look right with that hilt to me.

edited: if it is brass as you posted later it could still be a repair...

27th April 2010, 01:41 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,087	Oddly constructed cutlass Sorry to visit old ghosts, but after my success with that old Dutch sword, I'd thought I'd give this old one a try as well. It truly appears to be an original piece, meaning, I don't think it's a theatrical or blacksmith piece made for fun. The blade, I think, is older and possibly one of those old Rev War imported (poorer quality) blades. Note the steep swoop on the end & many of this type in Neumann's. My quandry is the construction. It appears the blade tang was inserted in a corrigated/ribbed iron hollow grip, brass was poured into the space and the sheet guard was folded over the other end and brazed into place. You can see the darkened brass where the blade intersects the guard/hilt. I have seen one other sword like this that was very similar to the m1803 Brit cutlass, with brass securing the blade near the guard. So, is this just a "one off', made in limited supply, or has anyone else seen a sword with similar construction? There is a very primitive cutlass in Neumanns that has it's hilt tightened with poured lead, creating primitive langets for it, but that one still has the tang passing through the end of the hilt and piened, so not exactly the same thing. Anyway, opinions? Attached Images

2nd May 2010, 09:32 PM	#2
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Are you sure it is brass indeed? Try to put a small magnet over it, or to make a small fine scratch in order to see the natural metal tone. From here via the photo it sure looks like filled electric weld.

3rd May 2010, 12:51 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,087	I have a confession to make and I'm not proud of it ( ), but the reason I know its brass is because I used a chemical to pickle its color black to match the rest of the sword. The brass was old and yellowed with age when I got it, but contrasted so smartly with the rest of the dark sword and looked like a wad of gum holding the blade in place, so...I altered it to look more appealing. No trickery on my part, just wanted to have a less ugly appearance. So the surface of the brass now looks "off". Unfortunately, I don't know what to do about returning it to its former state. I'm afraid I'll wash away the patina and then it really will look like a "put-together" sword, which I truly don't believe it is. Does anyone have a suggestion of what I might do to remove the pickling to the brass??

3rd May 2010, 11:31 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,087	I used a commercial product I bought off the net. I can't remember its name, but it does work nicely. The less you leave it on, the lighter the patina. I used it to also darken a copper-wired small sword hilt (original sword, new wrap). Yes, this piece has always troubled me in a way. Unfortunately, though, there might still be no closure on its exact origin due to its classification. Privateer swords, axes, pikes, etc, were often prinitive affairs and like espada ancha, were sometimes made from spare parts, older blades, etc. This can be seen again and again in naval pieces. If we assume it was a repair, was it one to fix the blade in modern times? Was it an old repair? Was it made this way from the start as a "one off"? Or is it a fake put together to deceive? I regret staining the brass nuw, because perhaps I might have considered chipping away the old brass to see if it truly held this anomolous blade in place at the guard or if its tang inserts into the hollowed guard and then filled with brass. Still, I welcome your opinions and need to see more pics of examples of "electric weld" to understand what they look like. Did they use brass for this process? I would think brass has a higher melting point than what they used to weld with??

4th May 2010, 09:28 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,170	brazing happens at a lower temp. than welding. the brass filler metal melts at a significantly lower temp than the steel being joined. when used to produce a fillet where two surfaces meet at right angles it can look a bit like a proper weld. if you know someone who welds, he can probably tell by looking at it, the photos are a bit hard to tell. brazing is essentially like soldering where the filler melts and wets the joined metals which may be dissimilar to each other as well as the filler. the much higher temp of an electric arc weld not only melts the filler but the base metal being joined it requires the filler as well as the two parts to be joined to be similar (ie. all 3 steel) and would seriously affect the heat treatment hardening/temper of a blade. the temp. used to braze while lower is also high enough to affect the temper. i've not heard of tangs being held into iron grips by melted and poured brass, i suspect if anything they would have used lead. cutlers cement (tar or rosin mixed with brick dust and occasionally a fibrous material) was used for similar purposes at even lower temperatures. this site has info on arc welding, as well as brazing and other welding/brazing methods. as everything is covered up by the brass, an xray may be the only way to tell what is underneath. the xray will likely cost more that the item did tho. or you could take it and give it a good whack against a tree & see what it looks like when it breaks loose tho this somewhat detracts from it's appearence until you get it unbent and re-brazed anyway . modern electric welders like MIG and TIG types can also braze with a brass based filler, again at lower temp.

3rd May 2010, 12:53 PM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,170	photos look like it was arc welded, broken at the hilt & 'fixed'? the blade does not look right with that hilt to me. edited: if it is brass as you posted later it could still be a repair...