Yataghan and markings - ID and comments, please

longfellow · 9th November 2012, 07:42 AM

Good evening,

While cleaning house at the folks, I ran across a wooden wall decoration that has been hanging there, in a corner, for years - and had 3 swords in it. I always thought they were merely decoration until I took it down to clean. Much to my surprise, the swords look real but, for the life of me, I can't find an example of any of the three.

This is the yataghan(?) and the markings on it. It is 35" long, has copper decorations and a copper band up one side and down the other (sorry I forgot the photo of that). And a guard - not used to seeing those on one.

Any help or comments or identification would be appreciated!

ALEX · 9th November 2012, 01:00 PM

I agree, it looks "real", i.e. not just wall decoration. The blade shows some Ottoman insignia and coat of arms (and could be european trade blade, such as Zolingen. Any stamps at the base by forte?). The hilt is retrofitted Karabella-styled, also Ottoman type hilt. The later crossguard of that form is not unusual, although not common. It is impossible to determine without seeing it complete, can wee see the whole sword, and how about other two swords?:-)

longfellow · 9th November 2012, 03:04 PM

Hi Alex,

Thank you for the info. No, no other markings that I can see.

Here's a photo of the three. I should note that the change in color on the blades is probably because they were hanging near the fireplace (but not too near) in a wooden carving of a shield with a family crest and had been there since the 70's.

The middle one has a stamped (?) copper grip and pommel and a note on a small string tag saying '3rd crusade'. Length is 42" , the guard is a hair over 6", grip and pommel about 5 3/4" long.

The bottom sword may well be 'decorative'. About 39" in length, looks like a cast grip and guard that a magnetic sticks to, guard 6 1/4" across and grip about 7 1/4" long.

It looks like my dad used something of each of the first 3 decades he had been actively collecting - bottom acquired 1958, middle acquired 1975 and top acquired 1965

YataganMan · 9th November 2012, 06:42 PM

Dear Member,
The picture you have submitted is not of a yatagan but is of a heinz 57 variety,
First of all Yatagans we know of do not have cross guards and are not as broad
and straight ( with the exception of some sırbian produce ).The blade is a typical european manufactured ( most possibly Hungarian) commercial blade supplıed to the Turkish/Ottoman market.The hilt is a sword hilt common in 18/19 centuries.The cross guard does not belong to the hilt as you will see it was made for a different type cross guard(pls note the bedding for the tang on the hilt)and its a later reproduction of 16 century Ottoman type cross guard.
But it is an old sword probably around 200 years old.Enjoy it.
Regards

Iain · 9th November 2012, 07:11 PM

Not to derail the thread but the middle sword is a kaskara - a Sudanese sword. Likely a 19th or early 20th century piece. Looks quite nice and might just deserve a thread of its own.

longfellow · 10th November 2012, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Not to derail the thread but the middle sword is a kaskara - a Sudanese sword. Likely a 19th or early 20th century piece. Looks quite nice and might just deserve a thread of its own.

Hello Iain,

There is a saying: Ask and ye shall receive.

I will be glad to start a thread for the Kaskara. I handled one from my dad's collection some time back and should have recognized it. However, this one, with the work on the hilt and pommel sort of put me on a wrong trail. The other one seemed much more crude while the work on this one is, ah, nice. A thread will give me a chance to show good photos of it, too. Thank you for the nudge.

ALEX · 9th November 2012, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YataganMan

Dear Member,
The picture you have submitted is not of a yatagan but is of a heinz 57 variety...

Not exactly. This is a variety of yataghan! As I mentioned, these variations with karabella-like crossquards and hits are rare. Here's one with shamshir cross: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2866
The blade was made in yat form and for yat. This form is also known on Polish yats and used by the Hungarian mountaneers of late 18th Century (Pandours).

YataganMan · 9th November 2012, 08:31 PM

Dear Alex ,
Thank you for your valuable contribution in re above but the picture you supplied (oriental arms )does confirm the point I made where it just says Yatagan STYLE Turkish Sword and furher in 18oo's some european nations supplıed their military rifles with yatagan bayonets ,can we consider both of these Yatagans ?İf an edged weapon lacks the typical characsteristics of(recurve blades,eared handles small or big and hilts without guards ) it can not be classed as yatagans.Just resemblence of one part ie the blade does not qualify it being a yatagan.The original post named that sword Yatagan and I only wanted to correct the terminology and the concept.
Best regards

ariel · 9th November 2012, 09:33 PM

Such yataghans are well represented in Elgood's book on Balkan weaponry: Greek naval yataghan.

longfellow · 10th November 2012, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Not exactly. This is a variety of yataghan! As I mentioned, these variations with karabella-like crossquards and hits are rare. Here's one with shamshir cross: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2866
The blade was made in yat form and for yat. This form is also known on Polish yats and used by the Hungarian mountaneers of late 18th Century (Pandours).

Hello Alex,

Thank you for the information and the sources that you have shared. I know just enough about edged weapons to be, well, I guess, dangerous - to myself, that is. I know a bit more than a little, but very far from enough. I hadn't even begun to begin to think about something other than Turkish. I only wish I had the time to study so many more things than I'm already trying to. Again, thank you.

Norman McCormick · 23rd November 2012, 04:12 PM

Hi,
Austro-Hungarian officers sword c1785, from www.sailorinsaddle.com
Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 23rd November 2012, 04:16 PM

Hi,
European hunting hanger latter half 18thC.
Regards,
Norman.

T. Koch · 23rd November 2012, 09:12 PM

Hi Longfellow,

I'm sorry for not getting back to you on the hilt material any time sooner - I must have missed your update somehow.

The scale is a bit tricky to ID, with those diagonal scratches in the surface obscuring the grain, but two features prompt me to believe that we're looking at rhinoceros horn: The horizontal thread-like grain of the handle, where the individual fibers are visible in areas where the surface scratches aren't so prominent, is typical for rhino. Likewise, if you look at the hole drilled near the pommel, the edge is damaged in a way that looks more "thready" than "flakey". Old rhino horn when dry and damaged becomes this way, rather than break of in chips and flakes like many bovine horn, for instance.

But, it is really hard to tell from photos!

Best wishes, - Thor

Zifir · 23rd November 2012, 10:21 PM

Norman,
Thanks a lot for these interesting examples. These are new for me.
Regards,

Norman McCormick · 24th November 2012, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zifir

Norman,
Thanks a lot for these interesting examples. These are new for me.
Regards,

Hi Zifir,
You're welcome. Here is something else that may be of interest, it is titled, From Freyfechter, Sebastian Heussler's Fencing Treatise, New Kunstlich Fechtbuch of 1615. An interesting article containing this image and others with text can be found here www.hroarr.com/the-dussack/
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Note the images of the 'heads' compared to the images on swords.

9th November 2012, 07:42 AM	#1
longfellow Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 37	Yataghan and markings - ID and comments, please Good evening, While cleaning house at the folks, I ran across a wooden wall decoration that has been hanging there, in a corner, for years - and had 3 swords in it. I always thought they were merely decoration until I took it down to clean. Much to my surprise, the swords look real but, for the life of me, I can't find an example of any of the three. This is the yataghan(?) and the markings on it. It is 35" long, has copper decorations and a copper band up one side and down the other (sorry I forgot the photo of that). And a guard - not used to seeing those on one. Any help or comments or identification would be appreciated! Attached Images

9th November 2012, 01:00 PM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	I agree, it looks "real", i.e. not just wall decoration. The blade shows some Ottoman insignia and coat of arms (and could be european trade blade, such as Zolingen. Any stamps at the base by forte?). The hilt is retrofitted Karabella-styled, also Ottoman type hilt. The later crossguard of that form is not unusual, although not common. It is impossible to determine without seeing it complete, can wee see the whole sword, and how about other two swords?:-) Last edited by ALEX; 9th November 2012 at 01:40 PM.

9th November 2012, 03:04 PM	#3
longfellow Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 37	Hi Alex, Thank you for the info. No, no other markings that I can see. Here's a photo of the three. I should note that the change in color on the blades is probably because they were hanging near the fireplace (but not too near) in a wooden carving of a shield with a family crest and had been there since the 70's. The middle one has a stamped (?) copper grip and pommel and a note on a small string tag saying '3rd crusade'. Length is 42" , the guard is a hair over 6", grip and pommel about 5 3/4" long. The bottom sword may well be 'decorative'. About 39" in length, looks like a cast grip and guard that a magnetic sticks to, guard 6 1/4" across and grip about 7 1/4" long. It looks like my dad used something of each of the first 3 decades he had been actively collecting - bottom acquired 1958, middle acquired 1975 and top acquired 1965 Attached Images

9th November 2012, 06:42 PM	#4
YataganMan Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 14	Yatagan Dear Member, The picture you have submitted is not of a yatagan but is of a heinz 57 variety, First of all Yatagans we know of do not have cross guards and are not as broad and straight ( with the exception of some sırbian produce ).The blade is a typical european manufactured ( most possibly Hungarian) commercial blade supplıed to the Turkish/Ottoman market.The hilt is a sword hilt common in 18/19 centuries.The cross guard does not belong to the hilt as you will see it was made for a different type cross guard(pls note the bedding for the tang on the hilt)and its a later reproduction of 16 century Ottoman type cross guard. But it is an old sword probably around 200 years old.Enjoy it. Regards

9th November 2012, 08:31 PM	#8
YataganMan Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 14	yatagan ID Dear Alex , Thank you for your valuable contribution in re above but the picture you supplied (oriental arms )does confirm the point I made where it just says Yatagan STYLE Turkish Sword and furher in 18oo's some european nations supplıed their military rifles with yatagan bayonets ,can we consider both of these Yatagans ?İf an edged weapon lacks the typical characsteristics of(recurve blades,eared handles small or big and hilts without guards ) it can not be classed as yatagans.Just resemblence of one part ie the blade does not qualify it being a yatagan.The original post named that sword Yatagan and I only wanted to correct the terminology and the concept. Best regards

9th November 2012, 07:11 PM	#5
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Not to derail the thread but the middle sword is a kaskara - a Sudanese sword. Likely a 19th or early 20th century piece. Looks quite nice and might just deserve a thread of its own.

9th November 2012, 09:33 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Such yataghans are well represented in Elgood's book on Balkan weaponry: Greek naval yataghan.

23rd November 2012, 04:12 PM	#11
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, Austro-Hungarian officers sword c1785, from www.sailorinsaddle.com Regards, Norman. Attached Images

23rd November 2012, 04:16 PM	#12
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, European hunting hanger latter half 18thC. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

23rd November 2012, 09:12 PM	#13
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Hi Longfellow, I'm sorry for not getting back to you on the hilt material any time sooner - I must have missed your update somehow. The scale is a bit tricky to ID, with those diagonal scratches in the surface obscuring the grain, but two features prompt me to believe that we're looking at rhinoceros horn: The horizontal thread-like grain of the handle, where the individual fibers are visible in areas where the surface scratches aren't so prominent, is typical for rhino. Likewise, if you look at the hole drilled near the pommel, the edge is damaged in a way that looks more "thready" than "flakey". Old rhino horn when dry and damaged becomes this way, rather than break of in chips and flakes like many bovine horn, for instance. But, it is really hard to tell from photos! Best wishes, - Thor

23rd November 2012, 10:21 PM	#14
Zifir Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	Norman, Thanks a lot for these interesting examples. These are new for me. Regards,