Moroccan sa'if help please

macandjenny · 23rd March 2009, 02:42 AM

Hello all,
I'm David and 'brand new' here. I also know virtually nothing about swords. I have one (see pictures) and would love it if someone could identify the blade mark. My research has the sword being given in 1813 -1816 by a particular French officer to a person who came to Australia some years later. I think it was in a house fire here some 40 years ago which may account for its condition. Any help that you could give me would be most appreciated.
Kind regards
David

kronckew · 23rd March 2009, 05:13 PM

double post

see my reply in the other one.

Jim McDougall · 23rd March 2009, 05:45 PM

Hello David, and I'd like to welcome you aboard!!!!
Very interesting Moroccan sa'if (also of course commonly termed nimcha in our collecting parlance), especially for the unusually placed cartouche in Arabic on the blade.
These sabres were widely used in Maghrebi coastal regions from Morocco to Algiers, and it seems typically used European trade blades. It is most unusual to see a blade of this type and marked with this type of inscription in cartouche.

I am hoping our Arabic linquists will help!!

Thank you for posting this David......these sabres are extremely appealing, and this one unusual with the blade marking.

All very best regards,
Jim

Dom · 24th March 2009, 12:53 AM

Hi Gentlemen

what I'm seing .... is a stamp ...
stamp for blacksmith, I suppose

unfortunatly, if it's looks a little bite like letters,
it's just a design without signification

I mean for arabic readers or speakers

those stamps may be find
on tin objects
or brass coffee pot,
even in silvery
not strange to find stamp of craftsman, or blacksmith

stamp could be ;
- initials
but also design;
- "lion" for Assad Allah for instance .. famous Irako-Syrian blancksmith for blades

Rgds

à +

Dom

Jim McDougall · 24th March 2009, 04:01 AM

Hi Dom,
Thank you for coming in on this. Very interesting comments on this stamp, and the reference to the familiar Assad Allah stamps on many of the trade blades which became commonly used in so many regions.

Going with the provenance notes on this with reference to France and the years noted. It should be noted that these swords were particularly associated in many cases with the Ottoman corsairs (commonly termed Barbary pirates). France was engaged in considerable conflicts in Egypt and the Levant in 1798-99 with Ottoman forces, and it would not be hard to imagine that these sa'if found use in those regions, even though they are typically considered a Moroccan form. The form of hilt itself has history as early as the end of the 16th, and remained in use in the Maghreb well into the 19th century.

This sabre would seem to possibly have been a trophy from these events in these regions. It is always interesting to have some degree of provenance with these weapons as it establishes developmental bench marks for the form.

Thank you again Dom, for the help with the marking, and observations.
The example Krockew has posted seems a great deal like this one also. Has anybody seen similar stamps in blades at this location on the blade?

All the best,
Jim

LPCA · 24th March 2009, 08:06 AM

Bonjour, friends.

David, may i have the size of the blade only, the thickness of the back and if possible a close-up of the blade showing the fuller. The shape looks very near from one of mine.
As for the stamp, never seen this round type in maghrig craftmen markings. In fact, only Morocco should be seriously concerned, but for the barrels stamped sometimes with test and factory's marks (little square stamp of Tetouan, ...) . The stronger way may be a craftman'mark...

I shall go on searching on the way of Zanzibar...!!!

Louis-Pierre

23rd March 2009, 02:42 AM	#1
macandjenny Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 4	Moroccan sa'if help please Hello all, I'm David and 'brand new' here. I also know virtually nothing about swords. I have one (see pictures) and would love it if someone could identify the blade mark. My research has the sword being given in 1813 -1816 by a particular French officer to a person who came to Australia some years later. I think it was in a house fire here some 40 years ago which may account for its condition. Any help that you could give me would be most appreciated. Kind regards David Attached Images

23rd March 2009, 05:13 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	double post see my reply in the other one.

23rd March 2009, 05:45 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Hello David, and I'd like to welcome you aboard!!!! Very interesting Moroccan sa'if (also of course commonly termed nimcha in our collecting parlance), especially for the unusually placed cartouche in Arabic on the blade. These sabres were widely used in Maghrebi coastal regions from Morocco to Algiers, and it seems typically used European trade blades. It is most unusual to see a blade of this type and marked with this type of inscription in cartouche. I am hoping our Arabic linquists will help!! Thank you for posting this David......these sabres are extremely appealing, and this one unusual with the blade marking. All very best regards, Jim

24th March 2009, 12:53 AM	#4
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Hi Gentlemen what I'm seing .... is a stamp ... stamp for blacksmith, I suppose unfortunatly, if it's looks a little bite like letters, it's just a design without signification I mean for arabic readers or speakers those stamps may be find on tin objects or brass coffee pot, even in silvery not strange to find stamp of craftsman, or blacksmith stamp could be ; - initials but also design; - "lion" for Assad Allah for instance .. famous Irako-Syrian blancksmith for blades Rgds à + Dom

24th March 2009, 04:01 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Hi Dom, Thank you for coming in on this. Very interesting comments on this stamp, and the reference to the familiar Assad Allah stamps on many of the trade blades which became commonly used in so many regions. Going with the provenance notes on this with reference to France and the years noted. It should be noted that these swords were particularly associated in many cases with the Ottoman corsairs (commonly termed Barbary pirates). France was engaged in considerable conflicts in Egypt and the Levant in 1798-99 with Ottoman forces, and it would not be hard to imagine that these sa'if found use in those regions, even though they are typically considered a Moroccan form. The form of hilt itself has history as early as the end of the 16th, and remained in use in the Maghreb well into the 19th century. This sabre would seem to possibly have been a trophy from these events in these regions. It is always interesting to have some degree of provenance with these weapons as it establishes developmental bench marks for the form. Thank you again Dom, for the help with the marking, and observations. The example Krockew has posted seems a great deal like this one also. Has anybody seen similar stamps in blades at this location on the blade? All the best, Jim

24th March 2009, 08:06 AM	#6
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Bonjour, friends. David, may i have the size of the blade only, the thickness of the back and if possible a close-up of the blade showing the fuller. The shape looks very near from one of mine. As for the stamp, never seen this round type in maghrig craftmen markings. In fact, only Morocco should be seriously concerned, but for the barrels stamped sometimes with test and factory's marks (little square stamp of Tetouan, ...) . The stronger way may be a craftman'mark... I shall go on searching on the way of Zanzibar...!!! Louis-Pierre