Flanking officer saber?

cel7 · 17th November 2023, 05:15 PM

Received this saber today. I saw it at an auction and since no one was bidding on it I couldn't resist. It has quite a curve (11cm) and a clipped point. length 90cm. At the base it is almost 1cm thick. It has a wide fuller all the way to the tip. In my opinion late 18th or early 19th century.
The decorations on the blade are typically European (the cannons with banners). The strange thing is that the last 30cm of the blade seems to have been hammered out. If you run a finger over the blade you will clearly feel a wavy pattern. It may have had some major kinks at some point that they tried to straighten out.
I suspect it is a British flanking officer saber but I could be wrong.
Unfortunately, it does not have a sheath.

fernando · 17th November 2023, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cel7

... Unfortunately, it does not have a sheath...

Still was a great acquisition

.

Akanthus · 17th November 2023, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cel7

Received this saber today. I saw it at an auction and since no one was bidding on it I couldn't resist. It has quite a curve (11cm) and a clipped point. length 90cm. At the base it is almost 1cm thick. It has a wide fuller all the way to the tip. In my opinion late 18th or early 19th century.
The decorations on the blade are typically European (the cannons with banners). The strange thing is that the last 30cm of the blade seems to have been hammered out. If you run a finger over the blade you will clearly feel a wavy pattern. It may have had some major kinks at some point that they tried to straighten out.
I suspect it is a British flanking officer saber but I could be wrong.
Unfortunately, it does not have a sheath.

Hallo ,
Not exactly my stuff ,but i would say english, second half 18th.century,blade probably German ( Solingen) .A similar trophy bundle i have at the blade of a much older Feldsäbel.In the book "Enzyclopedia of Swords and Sabres", you find a sabre with a similar hilt but with a much less curved blade.
Good purchase

cel7 · 17th November 2023, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akanthus

Hallo ,
Not exactly my stuff ,but i would say english, second half 18th.century,blade probably German ( Solingen) .A similar trophy bundle i have at the blade of a much older Feldsäbel.In the book "Enzyclopedia of Swords and Sabres", you find a sabre with a similar hilt but with a much less curved blade.
Good purchase

Thanks Akantus!
Apparently this type of decoration was very fashionable at the time. I see it on sabers of different nationalities.

Jim McDougall · 19th November 2023, 04:09 AM

Actually, this is a REMARKABLE acquisition!!!!
While it is of course not surprising to think of this as British etc. given their profound attraction to the light cavalry of Eastern Europe in the 18th century, this is actually a Polish cavalry saber of 18th c.

A very similar example is found in "Ciecia Prawdziwa Szabla", Wojciech Zablocki, Warsaw, 1989,

These 'monster' head pommels are seen on several sword types of these regions in 18thc. . I would note that these rather extreme curves on the blades were much favored, and the 'clipped point' is referred to in "Schwert Degen Sabel", (Seifert, 1962) as a PANDOUR point.

The pandours were irregular forces from the Balkans and East Europe, most notably Hungary for Austria during the War of the Austrian Succession in mid 18th c. '
Later in the century these formidable forces were inspiration for similar in other European armies as well.

The absence of one guard bar and the capstan is not unusual with variations in these hilts.

The blades on these were often from Styria and several blade producing cities there. The decorative motif was popular on these sabers, often including royal or personal cyphers and various military panoplies.

An extremely nice saber, regardless of lack of scabbard. These were usually leather and did not survive in many cases. The grip would have been leather wire wrapped.

Please note, I am not saying this is a pandour saber, but that the influence/similarities seem present in this Polish saber of the 18th c.

cel7 · 19th November 2023, 11:52 AM

Hi Jim, Thanks for your response, I really appreciate it! The saber does indeed look similar. I'll look into the Polish sabre. Hadn't thought of that yet. And that is also what makes it so difficult to find out exactly what it is. The style of a saber moved with fashion. Countries copied from each other and at a time when officers also had a more or less free choice in what they wore, I find it difficult to definitively put a stamp on it.
I forgot to add a photo of a mark on the spine of the saber. If I'm not mistaken, this is a Solinger rose. Now I don't know whether the British also had their sabers made in Solingen (they had a flourishing arms industry themselves), but here on the mainland it often seems more the rule than the exception. Then the Polish option would again be obvious.

.

Jim McDougall · 19th November 2023, 03:44 PM

Actually the British did NOT have a flourishing blade industry, and did not make any particular advances into this until the latter 18th c. If you read the threads on Shotley Bridge here, this circumstance has been brilliantly researched by Keith Fisher over some years, and his book "The Crown and the Crossed Swords"is one of the most informative references on this subject available in my opinion.

Solingen did have the most dynamic blade making industry however, and by the 1780s in Great Britain, there were only three blade makers of note, despite incidental production elsewhere, most notable in Shotley. However in most cases, it was German blades that dominated, leading to the so called 'sword scandals' led by Thomas Gill in Birmingham calling for more British production over German.

The Polish sword situation was with some blades from Solingen possibly, but in most cases it was blades from Lvov, and some Styrian locations. In "Origins of the Polish Saber" (Jan Ostrowski, 1979) it is noted that there were no blade producing centers in Hungary, as their blades were from Styrian centers typically. As Styria was of course a state in Austro-Hungary, the Austrian blades were also primarily from these regions.

The rose on the blade spine is interesting and is of course European, but not certain Solingen necessarily. Keep in mind that the Solingen shops adopted many names, markings, and affectations from other places which were added spuriously, often presenting difficulty in proper identifications.

As you correctly observe, fashion was key in the colorful pageantry of the cavalry especially in the 18th century into the Napoleonic wars. This was prevalent in the hussar regiments, whose character as dashing light cavalry inspired many countries to add such units to the long standing dragoon regiments . Light cavalry and hussars of course favored the saber, taken from the Turkish examples used by their formidable light cavalry forces and tactics.,

By the mid 18th century, throughout France, Germany, Austria, Netherlands etc. all were adding these hussar units, and of course, the saber. Actually there were units of Hungarian hussars in the French army and others.
This diffusion cannot even be remotely touched on here, so the 'styles' of sabers moving through Europe accordingly can well be imagined.

I must admit that even in the many years I have studied this history, I cannot claim any particular expertise, and am still learning, so finding it difficult to find specific answers and classifications is of course understandable. As noted, officers, particularly in these times, had their swords privately commissioned, and often these were to their own whims as well as with features of other forms. In many cases, cutlers who assembled and mounted swords used blades from various sources, and were often workers in precious metals who created hilts based on popular styles.

Identifying these kinds of swords relies on endless study, comparison, obscure resources, and items with sound provenance that has some reliable documentation. It is a relentless, fascinating and often obsessive pursuit, so ......welcome to the chase!!!!
You clearly have a discerning eye, this saber is outstanding and again, in my opinion most likely Polish, or of Polish character, as shown. However, to say exactly what its circumstances were, where in the cavalries of Eastern Europe it was used. With only the popular 18th c. standard military flourish in blade decoration and no distinct cyphers etc.it is hard to say more.

17th November 2023, 05:15 PM	#1
cel7 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 154	Flanking officer saber? Received this saber today. I saw it at an auction and since no one was bidding on it I couldn't resist. It has quite a curve (11cm) and a clipped point. length 90cm. At the base it is almost 1cm thick. It has a wide fuller all the way to the tip. In my opinion late 18th or early 19th century. The decorations on the blade are typically European (the cannons with banners). The strange thing is that the last 30cm of the blade seems to have been hammered out. If you run a finger over the blade you will clearly feel a wavy pattern. It may have had some major kinks at some point that they tried to straighten out. I suspect it is a British flanking officer saber but I could be wrong. Unfortunately, it does not have a sheath. Attached Images

19th November 2023, 04:09 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Actually, this is a REMARKABLE acquisition!!!! While it is of course not surprising to think of this as British etc. given their profound attraction to the light cavalry of Eastern Europe in the 18th century, this is actually a Polish cavalry saber of 18th c. A very similar example is found in "Ciecia Prawdziwa Szabla", Wojciech Zablocki, Warsaw, 1989, These 'monster' head pommels are seen on several sword types of these regions in 18thc. . I would note that these rather extreme curves on the blades were much favored, and the 'clipped point' is referred to in "Schwert Degen Sabel", (Seifert, 1962) as a PANDOUR point. The pandours were irregular forces from the Balkans and East Europe, most notably Hungary for Austria during the War of the Austrian Succession in mid 18th c. ' Later in the century these formidable forces were inspiration for similar in other European armies as well. The absence of one guard bar and the capstan is not unusual with variations in these hilts. The blades on these were often from Styria and several blade producing cities there. The decorative motif was popular on these sabers, often including royal or personal cyphers and various military panoplies. An extremely nice saber, regardless of lack of scabbard. These were usually leather and did not survive in many cases. The grip would have been leather wire wrapped. Please note, I am not saying this is a pandour saber, but that the influence/similarities seem present in this Polish saber of the 18th c. Attached Images

19th November 2023, 11:52 AM	#6
cel7 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 154	Hi Jim, Thanks for your response, I really appreciate it! The saber does indeed look similar. I'll look into the Polish sabre. Hadn't thought of that yet. And that is also what makes it so difficult to find out exactly what it is. The style of a saber moved with fashion. Countries copied from each other and at a time when officers also had a more or less free choice in what they wore, I find it difficult to definitively put a stamp on it. I forgot to add a photo of a mark on the spine of the saber. If I'm not mistaken, this is a Solinger rose. Now I don't know whether the British also had their sabers made in Solingen (they had a flourishing arms industry themselves), but here on the mainland it often seems more the rule than the exception. Then the Polish option would again be obvious. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th November 2023 at 03:00 PM. Reason: Please do not quote entire previous posts, just relevant small sections when necessary.

19th November 2023, 03:44 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Actually the British did NOT have a flourishing blade industry, and did not make any particular advances into this until the latter 18th c. If you read the threads on Shotley Bridge here, this circumstance has been brilliantly researched by Keith Fisher over some years, and his book "The Crown and the Crossed Swords"is one of the most informative references on this subject available in my opinion. Solingen did have the most dynamic blade making industry however, and by the 1780s in Great Britain, there were only three blade makers of note, despite incidental production elsewhere, most notable in Shotley. However in most cases, it was German blades that dominated, leading to the so called 'sword scandals' led by Thomas Gill in Birmingham calling for more British production over German. The Polish sword situation was with some blades from Solingen possibly, but in most cases it was blades from Lvov, and some Styrian locations. In "Origins of the Polish Saber" (Jan Ostrowski, 1979) it is noted that there were no blade producing centers in Hungary, as their blades were from Styrian centers typically. As Styria was of course a state in Austro-Hungary, the Austrian blades were also primarily from these regions. The rose on the blade spine is interesting and is of course European, but not certain Solingen necessarily. Keep in mind that the Solingen shops adopted many names, markings, and affectations from other places which were added spuriously, often presenting difficulty in proper identifications. As you correctly observe, fashion was key in the colorful pageantry of the cavalry especially in the 18th century into the Napoleonic wars. This was prevalent in the hussar regiments, whose character as dashing light cavalry inspired many countries to add such units to the long standing dragoon regiments . Light cavalry and hussars of course favored the saber, taken from the Turkish examples used by their formidable light cavalry forces and tactics., By the mid 18th century, throughout France, Germany, Austria, Netherlands etc. all were adding these hussar units, and of course, the saber. Actually there were units of Hungarian hussars in the French army and others. This diffusion cannot even be remotely touched on here, so the 'styles' of sabers moving through Europe accordingly can well be imagined. I must admit that even in the many years I have studied this history, I cannot claim any particular expertise, and am still learning, so finding it difficult to find specific answers and classifications is of course understandable. As noted, officers, particularly in these times, had their swords privately commissioned, and often these were to their own whims as well as with features of other forms. In many cases, cutlers who assembled and mounted swords used blades from various sources, and were often workers in precious metals who created hilts based on popular styles. Identifying these kinds of swords relies on endless study, comparison, obscure resources, and items with sound provenance that has some reliable documentation. It is a relentless, fascinating and often obsessive pursuit, so ......welcome to the chase!!!! You clearly have a discerning eye, this saber is outstanding and again, in my opinion most likely Polish, or of Polish character, as shown. However, to say exactly what its circumstances were, where in the cavalries of Eastern Europe it was used. With only the popular 18th c. standard military flourish in blade decoration and no distinct cyphers etc.it is hard to say more.