A cup hilt sword for coments

[fernando]

What makes this one be an unusual example is naturally the grip, in its twisted groove form, made of pale brass.
Condition is not the best; that's when it comes in hand call them old warriors .
I take it this is from the end XVII ventury, but subject to better judgement.
On one face of the blade we can discern the engraved text, most certainly a spurious situation, but 'good enough' to atribute it a Portuguese origin. The text, partly inferred due to some letters being deeply faded, says about ENRIQUE COL ESPADEIRO. The wording on the other face is completely vanished; not originally inexistant though, as the custom was to complete the text with IN ALAMANIA or DEL REY IN ALAMANIA ... more or less misspeled.
The credit for the Portuguese origin, and not Spanish, is that the word ESPADEIRO can be totally read and, if it were faked in Spanish (Castillian) would be ESPADERO ... the I missing.
Rather wide fullered blade and knucle guard screwed to pommel, characteristics appointing to being a military specimen. Perhaps belonging to someone above rank, due to the grip added value.
Coments will be welcome and thanked for.
The pictures are not the best; i was in a hurry to post this thing, to show you guys.

Fernando

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[celtan]

Hi 'Nando,

This is what is adroitly called in America a "Bilbo" (from Bilbao, Euzkadi/Vasconia). An economical, tough and no-nonsense weapon that was used and exported everywhere, but was to characterize the Spanish Caribbean of the mid-17th C. Some were still around as recent as the early 19th C. In fact, this popular type was made all around Iberia, not only in the Basque country.

Regarding the "espadeiro", it well might be that he was of that demi-god race of supermen also known as gallegos, known for their fighting prowess, sword-smithing, and as makers of the Ambrosia elixis (aka Albariño).

I don't think the beautiful grip goes hand-in-hand with the rest of such an utilitarian weapon. Possibly, it was added after-market, or as repair to the original wood handle?

Best regards

Manuel

[M ELEY]

Very nice 'utilitarian' piece, Fernando. Looking at it makes me think "pirate"- If you ever decide to part with it...
Mark

[fernando]

Hi Mark,

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Very nice 'utilitarian' piece, Fernando. Looking at it makes me think "pirate"- If you ever decide to part with it...
Mark

Thanks for the compliment.
Well, you know, 'cup' hilt swords are really my 'cup' of tea .
Hardly to be parted with.
But i will register you as first candidate

Fernando

[M ELEY]

Yes, a wonderful piece. I understand from speaking to Manolo on other posts the differences in opinion between the Old World "true" (??) cup-hilts and those post-1700 pieces sometimes referred to as bilbos. Where my confusion comes in is that this piece does appear to have the ridged over-lap to the bowl. Isn't this typically found on Spanish pieces vs those found over here? I remember discussing this on a past thread, but I could be wrong. I guess one could surmise that parts in the Old World made it to the west, as did occur, but I would have trouble believing this piece to be a put-together, like some primitive espada. Perhaps I need the definition on a 'bilbo' one more time so I can understand it. Is it based solely on time period, form/construction, or locale that it was used in????

[celtan]

Howdy guys,

"Bilbo" is an English catch-all word used to very generally refer to the Spanish "Utilitarian" cup-hilt swords, so often found all over America. They usually had a wide, _relatively_ short sturdy and well tempered blades, very practical and unadorned. The grip was more often than not wood, sometimes covered with wire.

The term comes from the Spanish Basque city of Bilbao, where a significant number of them were made and exported to the New World. In Basque that name is actually "Bilbo", although there's also a basque town by that name. I understand these swords were also sold to merchants of every european nation, including England.

The type was very popular aboard ships, where it was used on a similar role as the cutlass was among other nations. Needless to say, this sword was also used in Europe, but curiously, seem to have survived better in America. Probably because in the colonies these were better taken care of, since they were more difficult to acquire, and thus more valuable.

"Bilbo" if often misused by neophytes to refer to *any* spanish sword.

And Nando, I'm just goading you. : ) I'm certain this sword is not gallega, nor made by a galician Vulcano. It has to be portuguesa, and a fine sample it is.

I seldom drink, but I'll be looking forward to try a Alvarinho portugues. Since you claim is as good as the galician ambrosia (Ambrosia La Gallega "), then it surely must be el nectar de los dioses.

The term used today in Spain for this type of hilt is, IIRC, "Taza". Although, as a kid they were rather called "Toledanas" amd "Estoques".

Galicia was famous for ax-making and the antenna-swords the romans eventually adopted as the Gladius, but I don't know of any renowned Galician espadeiro, in fact, the term is currently used to refer to fishermen, of all things!

Mike, the ring you mention is called a rompe-puntas, a (blade) point-breaker.

Best regards to y'all

: )

M

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Yes, a wonderful piece. I understand from speaking to Manolo on other posts the differences in opinion between the Old World "true" (??) cup-hilts and those post-1700 pieces sometimes referred to as bilbos. Where my confusion comes in is that this piece does appear to have the ridged over-lap to the bowl. Isn't this typically found on Spanish pieces vs those found over here? I remember discussing this on a past thread, but I could be wrong. I guess one could surmise that parts in the Old World made it to the west, as did occur, but I would have trouble believing this piece to be a put-together, like some primitive espada. Perhaps I need the definition on a 'bilbo' one more time so I can understand it. Is it based solely on time period, form/construction, or locale that it was used in????

[fernando]

Hi Manel (à la Portuguese )

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi 'Nando,
This is what is adroitly called in America a "Bilbo" (from Bilbao, Euzkadi/Vasconia). An economical, tough and no-nonsense weapon that was used and exported everywhere, but was to characterize the Spanish Caribbean of the mid-17th C. Some were still around as recent as the early 19th C. In fact, this popular type was made all around Iberia, not only in the Basque country.

This? A Bilbo sword? You drive me into some confusion .
Aren't Bilbo hilts another thing? What's the connection between Bilbos and Cup hilts... or de Taza in Castillian ... or de copos de Tigela in Portuguese?
I guess i find the attribution you mention 'unadroit'

Originally Posted by celtan

Regarding the "espadeiro", it well might be that he was of that demi-god race of supermen also known as gallegos, known for their fighting prowess, sword-smithing ...

I wouldn't think so. Not that you aren't demi-gods; that, i am sure of . I mean about the blade being Gallega; well, you never know .

Originally Posted by celtan

... and as makers of the Ambrosia elixis (aka Albariño).

Wait a minute; the Alvarinho from my side doesn't stay behind !
By the way, how do Gallegos call these hilts? taza (cup) or tigela/tijola (bowl)?

Originally Posted by celtan

I don't think the beautiful grip goes hand-in-hand with the rest of such an utilitarian weapon. Possibly, it was added after-market, or as repair to the original wood handle? ...

I am with you on this one.
But given its patina and pommel screw condition, this must have taken place long long ago.

Porta-te bem.

Fernando