English Sea Service Pistol?

JamesKelly · 21st March 2016, 01:05 AM

This plain pistol is of large caliber, 20mm, with a 230mm long barrel. The barrel is 30.3mm dia some 9-10mm ahead of the breech. This is identical to a British Light Dragoon pistol, marked Williams, in my Accumulation. By contrast, an India pattern Brown Bess of mine measures 33.9mm dia at similar location. By these measurements I assume the pistol barrel was intended to be 20mm caliber, and not a cut-down musket barrel. No visible proof marks. The lock and breech end of the barrel have some black paint, which might be consistent with sea service except it looks to have been applied after some corrosion and pitting had already taken place. The large bore permits a standard musket ball to be used.
I will probably go through life assuming that this is an English Sea Service pistol unless you gentlemen have other ideas.

Tony PP · 21st March 2016, 01:29 PM

It might have been to sea and a British person might have fired it but I don't think this is a British Sea Service Pistol. The angle of the grip/butt looks too straight. I don't think I have seen a Sea Service without a brass butt plate of some shape. The lock does not look British and the powder pan has a very strange shape?. Never have I seen any British service flintlock without very deep stamped proof marks. Most have military or naval markings ( Not all). Your pistol has numbers but they look rather recent and too small for any service stamp. My guess is that you either have a cut down rifle /carbine of some sort or something made up from parts. When of course is the real question. Was it made to use in the distant past or was it made to deceive? I look forward to reading what others think and I might have got it all wrong.

Fernando K · 21st March 2016, 02:57 PM

Hello

Of course, it is not a service weapon, by a
absence of proof punches and other inscriptions. In addition, the auction of lated. The hammer, although legitimate, does not correspond to the time the rest of the lock

Fernando K

Pukka Bundook · 21st March 2016, 03:27 PM

It does appear old, but as already noted not Sea Service.

The lock with the faceted pan looks rather Germanic to me.

Best.
R.

corrado26 · 21st March 2016, 05:03 PM

This lock with its battery spring ending left of the screw that fixes the lock to the butt is typical Austrian: It is the lock of the ordnance pistol M 1770. But the triggerguard and sideplate are of an other unknown but certainly European origin.
corrado26

Shakethetrees · 21st March 2016, 05:07 PM

It looks old, except for the ramrod.

However the lock and trigger guard do not look like British issue.

It appears to me to have been assembled from various parts a long time ago. The stock looks like a cut down carbine or musket stock due to the profile. The lack of a buttcap also gives me pause.

It has a great patina and appears to have been legitimately used a long time ago, but any further attribution at this point (in my opinion), is strictly conjecture.

Fernando K · 21st March 2016, 10:08 PM

Hello

Numerous lock have the screw securing the lock to the stock right spring frizzen, so that is not a feature to define the origin of the lock, also other differences with the lock rise by corrado, as the auction of noticeable frizzen, a difference in the conformation of the gooseneck and the shape of "banana shape" of the plate of the lock and the pan is rounded and not facetted and depressed area at the end of the plate.

Affectionately. Fernando K

Sorry for the translator

JamesKelly · 21st March 2016, 11:03 PM

For what it's worth, the "390" is some manner of museum mark, not original to the pistol.
The pan is faceted, not round
Barrel measurements show that it is not a cut down musket. The profile is identical to a light dragoon pistol, not to a Brown Bess.
Otherwise, thank you, Gentlemen, for looking it over.

corrado26 · 22nd March 2016, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello

Numerous lock have the screw securing the lock to the stock right spring frizzen, so that is not a feature to define the origin of the lock,

So please be so kind and show me other locks with a flat plate and a flat swanneck cock that have this situation of the battery spring.
regards
corrado26

21st March 2016, 01:05 AM	#1
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	English Sea Service Pistol? This plain pistol is of large caliber, 20mm, with a 230mm long barrel. The barrel is 30.3mm dia some 9-10mm ahead of the breech. This is identical to a British Light Dragoon pistol, marked Williams, in my Accumulation. By contrast, an India pattern Brown Bess of mine measures 33.9mm dia at similar location. By these measurements I assume the pistol barrel was intended to be 20mm caliber, and not a cut-down musket barrel. No visible proof marks. The lock and breech end of the barrel have some black paint, which might be consistent with sea service except it looks to have been applied after some corrosion and pitting had already taken place. The large bore permits a standard musket ball to be used. I will probably go through life assuming that this is an English Sea Service pistol unless you gentlemen have other ideas. Attached Images

21st March 2016, 01:29 PM	#2
Tony PP Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 26	Sea Service Pistol ? It might have been to sea and a British person might have fired it but I don't think this is a British Sea Service Pistol. The angle of the grip/butt looks too straight. I don't think I have seen a Sea Service without a brass butt plate of some shape. The lock does not look British and the powder pan has a very strange shape?. Never have I seen any British service flintlock without very deep stamped proof marks. Most have military or naval markings ( Not all). Your pistol has numbers but they look rather recent and too small for any service stamp. My guess is that you either have a cut down rifle /carbine of some sort or something made up from parts. When of course is the real question. Was it made to use in the distant past or was it made to deceive? I look forward to reading what others think and I might have got it all wrong.

21st March 2016, 05:03 PM	#5
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	This lock with its battery spring ending left of the screw that fixes the lock to the butt is typical Austrian: It is the lock of the ordnance pistol M 1770. But the triggerguard and sideplate are of an other unknown but certainly European origin. corrado26 Attached Images

21st March 2016, 02:57 PM	#3
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hello Of course, it is not a service weapon, by a absence of proof punches and other inscriptions. In addition, the auction of lated. The hammer, although legitimate, does not correspond to the time the rest of the lock Fernando K

21st March 2016, 03:27 PM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	It does appear old, but as already noted not Sea Service. The lock with the faceted pan looks rather Germanic to me. Best. R.

21st March 2016, 05:07 PM	#6
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	It looks old, except for the ramrod. However the lock and trigger guard do not look like British issue. It appears to me to have been assembled from various parts a long time ago. The stock looks like a cut down carbine or musket stock due to the profile. The lack of a buttcap also gives me pause. It has a great patina and appears to have been legitimately used a long time ago, but any further attribution at this point (in my opinion), is strictly conjecture.

21st March 2016, 10:08 PM	#7
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hello Numerous lock have the screw securing the lock to the stock right spring frizzen, so that is not a feature to define the origin of the lock, also other differences with the lock rise by corrado, as the auction of noticeable frizzen, a difference in the conformation of the gooseneck and the shape of "banana shape" of the plate of the lock and the pan is rounded and not facetted and depressed area at the end of the plate. Affectionately. Fernando K Sorry for the translator

21st March 2016, 11:03 PM	#8
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	For what it's worth, the "390" is some manner of museum mark, not original to the pistol. The pan is faceted, not round Barrel measurements show that it is not a cut down musket. The profile is identical to a light dragoon pistol, not to a Brown Bess. Otherwise, thank you, Gentlemen, for looking it over.