Blades and horseshoes??!!

[wolviex]

Dear Friends!

Some of you have a real great mettalurgical and mettalography knowledge so I hope you'll coment this thread.

I just have read an excerpt of new "Guide for collectors" just printed in Poland, with chapter on weapons written by one famous person, whose name I would like to keep in secret for a while (I have my reasons, sorry).

In section devoted to Polish sabres the Author wrote something like this (my translation):

"Hussars sabre (...) has excellent blade of average curvature, with fullers and often with devotion inscriptions like IEZVS MARIA IOZEF. As a material used for this blades were often horseshoes, which were forged in "natural way" during the horse run".

This is new to me!

Have you heard of using horseshoe for a blade.
and what about "natural forging" on the horses hoof?

Below hussars sabre blade with inscription IEZVS MARIA IOZEF

Regards!

[S.Al-Anizi]

Interesting information, I never heard a horseshoe for a sword, wouldnt it be too soft? Lets wait and see what Jim has to say about this

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by S.Al-Anizi

Interesting information, I never heard a horseshoe for a sword, wouldnt it be too soft? Lets wait and see what Jim has to say about this

That was my first reaction. Horseshoes are soft iron, they're made that way on purpose. It's one of the reasons circus strongmen could do the old stunt of bending and straightening them out. As for the idea that the horseshoes themselves get stronger from being on the horses' hooves, that makes little or no sense. The only way to strengthen the metal is in the forging process, so unless the horses are running around with red-hot shoes, I don't see how that could work.

Now, I suppose there could be some sort of parable or fable about old horseshoes being added to the steel in a sort of sympathetic magic, but that's what it sounds like, and old wive's tale. Perhaps a reversal of the old "beat your swords into plowhares" parable, "beat your horsehoes into blades".

Fenris

[Paul Digard]

Originally Posted by FenrisWolf

The only way to strengthen the metal is in the forging process, so unless the horses are running around with red-hot shoes, I don't see how that could work.

I'm on shaky ground here (the last time I studied metallurgy was 15 years ago and undergraduate classes were even further back!) but at least some metals will work harden when cold. Silver and copper do for sure and I'm 99% sure it applies to ferrous metals too. Think of how you can snap a metal wire by bending and straightening it repeatedly. It's to do with imperfections in the crystalline packing migrating when the metal is deformed - the metal gets more resistant to deformation but also more brittle.

Having said that, I fully agree that the horseshoes to swords thing sounds apocryphal!

Paul

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Michal,

Yes old horseshoes, nails and used iron pieces were mixed with other kinds of iron, when forging blades. I don’t remember where I read it; it could be in Persian Steel by James Allan and Brian Gilmour. But i have never heard about 'natural forging'.

Jens

[HUSAR]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Michal,

Yes old horseshoes, nails and used iron pieces were mixed with other kinds of iron, when forging blades. I don’t remember where I read it; it could be in Persian Steel by James Allan and Brian Gilmour. But i have never heard about 'natural forging'.

Jens

HI Michal
I agree with Jens, I also read somewhere that many different types of iron (including horseshoes) was used in swords production , I do not really believe that horse could forge a horseshoe to hussar blade quality but on the other hand... not all swords are made of the the hard steel while some have though core coated with softer iron....
Best
Damian

[wolviex]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Michal,

Yes old horseshoes, nails and used iron pieces were mixed with other kinds of iron, when forging blades. I don’t remember where I read it; it could be in Persian Steel by James Allan and Brian Gilmour. But i have never heard about 'natural forging'.

Jens

Dear Jens!
Well, I'm not surprise at all, it is obvious of using different iron objects and reforge them into different piece.
But the statement written in the book sounds like they used especially and only horseshoes for hussars sabres blades - what imo sounds like some kind of misunderstanding.
Anyway I'm waiting for other voices too. Thank you all for your opinions!