Insights into Chinese ring pommel swords

Neil · 9th April 2010, 05:44 PM

I am curious about others thoughts on the use/function/reason for the ring on the end of some antique Chinese swords. Was it just a convenient pommel to create during the forging process, or were there specific functions it provided in use or symbolism etc. I realize examples of this can be seen very far back in Chinese history all the way up to WWII soldiers swords. Feel free to comment about any that you may have thoughts on. Thank you for your insights.

fearn · 10th April 2010, 05:40 PM

Hi Neil,

I suspect the main use of the rings was for storage and transport. Weapons could be carried on poles or suspended by hooks on a wall, and the blade wouldn't get dull. On knives, it also makes a useful loop for pulling a blade out of a sheath, or a thumb ring. Still, the ring hilt is most common on military weapons, and I think it mostly for transport and storage. If you look at civilian daos and jian, they don't have the ring so often.

Best,

F

Jim McDougall · 10th April 2010, 05:52 PM

This is an absolutely excellent topic Neil, and thank you for posting it, as well as welcome to the forum!
I think Fearn's suggestion's are very well placed, and make good sense pragmatically as these large rings did lend well to these kinds of uses.
It seems the ring pommels extend well back into ancient China, and it seems there is other literature on rings on swords in European use as well. With these circumstances there are often symbolic applications, and it would be good to look further into that.
I know I'll be doing that later before I write more, but wanted to welcome you and say I very much appreciate you posting this.

All best regards,
Jim

Atlantia · 10th April 2010, 06:07 PM

Also, as we can see in Neil's picture, the Chinese do love to have tassels and trailing silks/ribbons on weapons. The big ring means that you would have much more 'scope' for this, as you could literally improvise by tying scarves or just strips of fabric. No need for anything specialist. Not that I'm an officianado of Chinese warfare or anything, but didn't separate groups/factions/regiments have colours that identified them? Would this also have a purpose for the trailing silk ribbons?
Or distraction etc?
Just a thought.

Nathaniel · 10th April 2010, 06:18 PM

Ribbon's/ a scarf tied to the pommel I think are decorative as used in Wushu...as in the picture Niel posted....you could use the ribbon/cord perhaps to lash the weapon to your hand so it knocked out of your hand you could easily retrieve it. I remember one old drawing in Alex Huang's book Iron & Steel: Swords of China there is a demon depicted with a sword with ring pommel that is chained to his wrist (Page 80) Ring Pommels are seen in Tang Dynasty swords.

On a side note...I remember in some TV show they said the ribbons/ strings near the head of the spear head you see on wushu spears modernly was used to distract the eye of the enemy...and to prevent blood from coming down the shaft and making the pole slippery...and that spinning the shaft would spin the blood off that had accumulated on the strings at the spear head...I have no idea if there is any truth to this...maybe just a good story

Atlantia · 10th April 2010, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

Ribbon's/ a scarf tied to the pommel I think are decorative as used in Wushu...as in the picture Niel posted....you could use the ribbon/cord perhaps to lash the weapon to your hand so it knocked out of your hand you could easily retrieve it. I remember one old drawing in Alex Huang's book Iron & Steel: Swords of China there is a demon depicted with a sword with ring pommel that is chained to his wrist (Page 80) Ring Pommels are seen in Tang Dynasty swords.

On a side note...I remember in some TV show they said the ribbons/ strings near the head of the spear head you see on wushu spears modernly was used to distract the eye of the enemy...and to prevent blood from coming down the shaft and making the pole slippery...and that spinning the shaft would spin the blood off that had accumulated on the strings at the spear head...I have no idea if there is any truth to this...maybe just a good story

Its an interesting study.
As far as I know (and I admit this isn't a speciality of mine) ring pommels go right back to Chinese antiquity. There are early 'Dao' (the glorified long single edged bronze dagger variety) with very pronounced ring pommels, and they are dating to several centuries BCE+ (Warring states and Qin)
I'm sure someone will know a more exact date for their origin, but its certainly early.
There are also the classic single edged long bronze dao with ring pommels which go back to 3rd-C BCE (Which according to wiki is Han, lol).

Thats a good story about the spinning spear! Not heard that before

Jim McDougall · 11th April 2010, 01:57 AM

As Gene has noted, the ring pommel does date well into antiquity, and as it is intriguing to see the dramatic cross cultural movement which largely insist on the symbolic and ritual significance in varying form.

Hilda Ellis-Davidson ("The Sword in Anglo Saxon England" 1962) describes the application of rings on the pommels of swords of 6th-7th centuries, but these are appurtenances rather than entire ringed pommels. On p.75 she notes that most archaeologists have concluded that these rings were most likely symbolic, and covers that in some detail.

In 1930, Stephen Grancsay wrote on the Japanese finds in a tomb in LoYang in Honan Province in China, where two long swords have ringed pommels which enclose symbolic figures of dragons and phoenix respectively.
These swords are believed of probably Sui Dynasty (589-618 AD) or more likely T'ang Dynasty (618-906AD). It is pointed out that the trade from the Occident travelled virtually directly to Honan, a key center in those times.
There seems to have been profound influence of the Japanese courts by the T'ang, and there are said to be about thirty swords with gilt copper ringed hilts in museums.

Other sources note the presence of rings on pommels of knives and daggers existed as early as the Shang (1600 BC-1046 BC) and Western Zhou (1046-771 BC) with the feature extending through through Eurasia. It is believed that the origins may well have been in Southern Siberia in Upper Yenesei and Minusinsk regions during these times. Obviously tradition carried the form itself through time, and bronze gave way to iron. Laufer (1914) notes that iron swords were typically modelled on thier bronze predecessors.

It is interesting to note an esoteric link that may bring together these far separated spheres and emphasize the trade between east and west.
This was the discovery of the 'Pereschepina Treasure' in the Poltava region of Ukraine in S. Russia. The sword found here had a ring type pommel and dates into 7th century. It carried Greek lettering and was believed a gift from Byzantium to the Homogunduri chieftain Khan Khubrat, of Eurasian tribal standing. This was published in Russia in 1985, and here can be seen the presence of the ring pommel, again with decorated ring and much as seen on the two Loyang straight longswords that seem somewhat contemporary.

While early use of the simple ring on bronze knives and daggers in the very ancient dynasties may well have been utilitarian in some fashion, it does seem that tradition carried it to the longswords where it became a device in imbued symbolism. It was clearly well known in Han times, whose traditions have always been strongly revered in China, and whose ancestry they deeply admire. Therefore it would seem that this ringed pommel feature, in simple stylized form, vestigially recalls the importance it held in earlier times and weapons.

Its use to attach various festoons may be considered auspiciously added, or in warfare, indeed used to distract or offset opponents. It is known that red tassels were added near the head of spears, and often bells were added to frighten horses of cavalry. The use of the cloth or tassels in later times in martial arts displays, common throughout the Qing dynasty, and especially well known as observed by westerners during the Boxer Rebellion, seems to have been to dramatically embellish and dramatize the swift movements of the martial artist. It was psychological warfare at its best, and Chinese even many times painted weapons red, as it was the color of war.

These are my findings from the research I have done on this fascinating topic, and look forward to further comments/corrections.

All best regards,
Jim

9th April 2010, 05:44 PM	#1
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	Insights into Chinese ring pommel swords I am curious about others thoughts on the use/function/reason for the ring on the end of some antique Chinese swords. Was it just a convenient pommel to create during the forging process, or were there specific functions it provided in use or symbolism etc. I realize examples of this can be seen very far back in Chinese history all the way up to WWII soldiers swords. Feel free to comment about any that you may have thoughts on. Thank you for your insights. Attached Images

10th April 2010, 05:40 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Neil, I suspect the main use of the rings was for storage and transport. Weapons could be carried on poles or suspended by hooks on a wall, and the blade wouldn't get dull. On knives, it also makes a useful loop for pulling a blade out of a sheath, or a thumb ring. Still, the ring hilt is most common on military weapons, and I think it mostly for transport and storage. If you look at civilian daos and jian, they don't have the ring so often. Best, F

10th April 2010, 05:52 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	This is an absolutely excellent topic Neil, and thank you for posting it, as well as welcome to the forum! I think Fearn's suggestion's are very well placed, and make good sense pragmatically as these large rings did lend well to these kinds of uses. It seems the ring pommels extend well back into ancient China, and it seems there is other literature on rings on swords in European use as well. With these circumstances there are often symbolic applications, and it would be good to look further into that. I know I'll be doing that later before I write more, but wanted to welcome you and say I very much appreciate you posting this. All best regards, Jim

10th April 2010, 06:07 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Also, as we can see in Neil's picture, the Chinese do love to have tassels and trailing silks/ribbons on weapons. The big ring means that you would have much more 'scope' for this, as you could literally improvise by tying scarves or just strips of fabric. No need for anything specialist. Not that I'm an officianado of Chinese warfare or anything, but didn't separate groups/factions/regiments have colours that identified them? Would this also have a purpose for the trailing silk ribbons? Or distraction etc? Just a thought.

10th April 2010, 06:18 PM	#5
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Ribbon's/ a scarf tied to the pommel I think are decorative as used in Wushu...as in the picture Niel posted....you could use the ribbon/cord perhaps to lash the weapon to your hand so it knocked out of your hand you could easily retrieve it. I remember one old drawing in Alex Huang's book Iron & Steel: Swords of China there is a demon depicted with a sword with ring pommel that is chained to his wrist (Page 80) Ring Pommels are seen in Tang Dynasty swords. On a side note...I remember in some TV show they said the ribbons/ strings near the head of the spear head you see on wushu spears modernly was used to distract the eye of the enemy...and to prevent blood from coming down the shaft and making the pole slippery...and that spinning the shaft would spin the blood off that had accumulated on the strings at the spear head...I have no idea if there is any truth to this...maybe just a good story

11th April 2010, 01:57 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	As Gene has noted, the ring pommel does date well into antiquity, and as it is intriguing to see the dramatic cross cultural movement which largely insist on the symbolic and ritual significance in varying form. Hilda Ellis-Davidson ("The Sword in Anglo Saxon England" 1962) describes the application of rings on the pommels of swords of 6th-7th centuries, but these are appurtenances rather than entire ringed pommels. On p.75 she notes that most archaeologists have concluded that these rings were most likely symbolic, and covers that in some detail. In 1930, Stephen Grancsay wrote on the Japanese finds in a tomb in LoYang in Honan Province in China, where two long swords have ringed pommels which enclose symbolic figures of dragons and phoenix respectively. These swords are believed of probably Sui Dynasty (589-618 AD) or more likely T'ang Dynasty (618-906AD). It is pointed out that the trade from the Occident travelled virtually directly to Honan, a key center in those times. There seems to have been profound influence of the Japanese courts by the T'ang, and there are said to be about thirty swords with gilt copper ringed hilts in museums. Other sources note the presence of rings on pommels of knives and daggers existed as early as the Shang (1600 BC-1046 BC) and Western Zhou (1046-771 BC) with the feature extending through through Eurasia. It is believed that the origins may well have been in Southern Siberia in Upper Yenesei and Minusinsk regions during these times. Obviously tradition carried the form itself through time, and bronze gave way to iron. Laufer (1914) notes that iron swords were typically modelled on thier bronze predecessors. It is interesting to note an esoteric link that may bring together these far separated spheres and emphasize the trade between east and west. This was the discovery of the 'Pereschepina Treasure' in the Poltava region of Ukraine in S. Russia. The sword found here had a ring type pommel and dates into 7th century. It carried Greek lettering and was believed a gift from Byzantium to the Homogunduri chieftain Khan Khubrat, of Eurasian tribal standing. This was published in Russia in 1985, and here can be seen the presence of the ring pommel, again with decorated ring and much as seen on the two Loyang straight longswords that seem somewhat contemporary. While early use of the simple ring on bronze knives and daggers in the very ancient dynasties may well have been utilitarian in some fashion, it does seem that tradition carried it to the longswords where it became a device in imbued symbolism. It was clearly well known in Han times, whose traditions have always been strongly revered in China, and whose ancestry they deeply admire. Therefore it would seem that this ringed pommel feature, in simple stylized form, vestigially recalls the importance it held in earlier times and weapons. Its use to attach various festoons may be considered auspiciously added, or in warfare, indeed used to distract or offset opponents. It is known that red tassels were added near the head of spears, and often bells were added to frighten horses of cavalry. The use of the cloth or tassels in later times in martial arts displays, common throughout the Qing dynasty, and especially well known as observed by westerners during the Boxer Rebellion, seems to have been to dramatically embellish and dramatize the swift movements of the martial artist. It was psychological warfare at its best, and Chinese even many times painted weapons red, as it was the color of war. These are my findings from the research I have done on this fascinating topic, and look forward to further comments/corrections. All best regards, Jim