A foundation for examining the quality of a keris blade

[Buntel Mayit]

Dear Keris Aficionados

I realize that there are several approaches to appraise the quality of a keris blade. What I need to know are various systems used by keris enthusiasts here when they are in a condition of appraising a keris blade—what is the most important element has to be assessed to the least important element. I hope it can be used to develop metrics based on various systems/approaches available. I don’t know whether it is possible for us to develop general acceptance system. However, by getting as much as possible of approaches from this forum, we can develop a comprehensive system comprised of all identified factors by employing factor analysis.

[David]

This old thread might give you a good start and help us keep from needlessly going over old ground.
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000307.html
There is also a part two to this thread. This is from the old forum from the years 2000-2004. When searching for information i would like to encourage people to search the old forum as well as this one. We have been talking about keris for quite some time around here.
I dug up Pt. 2 as well:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000402.html
Between them ther are many pages of dicussion (and argument) on this topic. I highly recommend that before anyone adds to this thread that they thoroughly read through these old pages to see where we have already been.

[Alam Shah]

Actually, it had been added to the Classics sticky thread on the 1st page of when you enter Keris Warung Kopi. Just a gentle reminder.

[A. G. Maisey]

As David and Alam Shah have pointed out, there has already been a lot of ground covered on this subject. I haven't read the posts about this subject for years, but my memory of it is that it went in interminable circles. I don't think there was ever a lot of good, solid down to earth useable info came out of all those thousands---maybe hundreds of thousands---of words.Don't misunderstand me, there was a heap of info in there, but I don't think that anybody, after reading it, could use what he had learnt to go out a buy himself a "good keris".

This is just about as I would expect, because appraisal of a keris is pretty much like appraisal of any other art work. The objective is to ascertain market value, but sometimes---as with any art work---market value moves in a direction that is not necessarily related to quantifiable quality.

Even if one ignores the question of value, and only concentrates on the physically quantifiable aspects of the work, to use an analytical approach where we specify the characteristics that should be found in the various features of a blade , is not really all that practical, because although we could come to a decision on the quality of the craftsmanship by using such an approach, we could not assess the art component because--- as with any art work--- that appraisal is subjective, and can only be effectively carried out by somebody with appropriate training and experience.

It is possible to appraise value to a limited degree by looking at components used in a complete keris, not just the blade. Gold is worth more than brass. Diamonds are worth more than rosecut rock crystal.However, no matter what materials are used, if the art factor is missing, the item is not worth as much as if the art factor were present.

Then there are the differences in standards between people with a keris interest in the western world, and people with an interest in keris in Jawa. Generally speaking, the western world collectors much prefer keris with high visual impact. Generally speaking, the collectors in Jawa much prefer keris with high prestige impact.The difference in the societies dictates what is favoured in those societies. What is desireable in Jawa, may not be particularly desireable in Sydney, or New York. And vice versa.

Even if we could come to agreement on some universal standard, I do not believe that even the most knowledgeable of us could pass our knowledge on to others by way of written words and internet photographs. In my opinion, what is needed is years and years and years of hands on experience. This cannot be replaced with photos and words.

What would perhaps be achieveable would be to specify standards of craftsmanship.This at least would be the beginning of an understanding of what goes to make a better than average keris.

[Montino Bourbon]

But what is 'prestige impact'? It sounds incredibly interesting, and, frankly, abstruse.

If it's not too much trouble, or does not repeat info written elsewhere, I would like you to define it.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Then there are the differences in standards between people with a keris interest in the western world, and people with an interest in keris in Jawa. Generally speaking, the western world collectors much prefer keris with high visual impact. Generally speaking, the collectors in Jawa much prefer keris with high prestige impact.The difference in the societies dictates what is favoured in those societies. What is desireable in Jawa, may not be particularly desireable in Sydney, or New York. And vice versa.

Dear Alan,
It would be better if you specify, which Jawa do people much prefer keris with high prestige impact. In Surakarta, yes, you are exactly right. But not in Yogyakarta -- which lies only 64 km distance, but the people have a very different taste with Surakarta. Yogyakarta people much prefer the originality, and the simplicity. And event don't wnat to touch the "gebyar keris" of Solo or Surakarta style... You will feel that atmosphere in Yogyakarta.

Surakarta's taste, is more "gebyar" (glamour, glitter) but Yogyakarta's taste is very simple. Yogya is extremely different, though so close...

Ganjawulung

[cahaya]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Alan,
....
Surakarta's taste, is more "gebyar" (glamour, glitter) but Yogyakarta's taste is very simple. Yogya is extremely different, though so close...

Ganjawulung

you right Gonjo....., i like yogyakarta style is very simple

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Then there are the differences in standards between people with a keris interest in the western world, and people with an interest in keris in Jawa. Generally speaking, the western world collectors much prefer keris with high visual impact. Generally speaking, the collectors in Jawa much prefer keris with high prestige impact.

It is still sound discriminative to me, and regarding that westerner is more perfect than the easterner, or even Javanese.... Soryy for this impression.

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

I find that a very interesting comment, Pak Ganja.

Are you able to explain in which way you find my remarks to be of a discriminatory nature?

Exactly what have I written that could cause you to think I am making remarks that discriminate against Javanese people, and in favour of people from western cultures.

I am certain that your answer will be fascinating.

[David]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

It is still sound discriminative to me, and regarding that westerner is more perfect than the easterner, or even Javanese.... Soryy for this impression.
Ganjawulung

Ganja, i am sorry that you get this impression from Alan's words, but i hardly think that was his intention. Rather than implying that the Westerner's view is more "prefect" it implies to me just the opposite, the tendency of the Westerner to be drawn to a keris merely for it's visual appearence rather than having a better understanding of it's spiritual nature or the cultural context that a particular keris may have within it's own particular Indonesian society. In other words, we Westerners have a tendency to like something for it's surface appearence, because it is "just another pretty face" without getting to know the deeper truth behind the "face". Now this isn't true of all Westerners either, it is merely a generalization. I don't, for instance, believe it is true for myself. I own many keris that certainly wouldn't win any "beauty contests" in the Western mind set, but they definitely have a kind of character to them that make them very valuable to me. But as a general rule of thumb i would agree that most Westerner collectors look for a keris that will "wow!" them visual first without taking into account concepts of social prestige and spiritual power.