New Keris/Keris baru

Ismarsodo · 19th May 2012, 12:47 PM

Dear Members,
Let me introduce first, my name is Ismarsodo, a new member here, Indonesian n living in Jakarta. I'm very interest to discuss more about keris, all kind of keris (Java, Madura, Sumatera, Malay, etc.), original old keris/keris sepuh or new made. Is there any thread for new keris here? If no, I would like this thread to be a special thread for sharing new keris/new made or some people call as keris tangguh kamardikan, and also for discussion @ anything new keris.
Let me share my collection first..

Name of Dapur: Kalanadah - Luk 5
Name of Pamor: Kelengan
Warangka: Gayaman Solo Nagasari Wood
Garap/made by Mujiyono/Ki Mangir 2011
Besalen: Mangiran, Malang

Cheers,

A. G. Maisey · 20th May 2012, 11:10 PM

Good to see you here, Ismarsodo, and welcome.

Your proposal for an increase in serious discussion of recently made keris is in my opinion, well overdue. A long time ago there was a thread in our old forum that was directed at discussion of the elements that might be considered when a determination was being made as to whether a keris was "good", or "not good". The things that surfaced in this old thread are seldom, if ever, raised in discussion these days. There currently seems to be a fixation on whether or not a keris is "old", or in other words, "genuine", and thus of value, or whether it is "fake", meaning "recently produced".

It saddens me when I see these sort of comments, and I have virtually stopped giving any attention to threads that fail to regard keris which have been recently produced as a legitimate continuation of cultural expression.

Recently made keris can be some of the very finest expressions of keris art that have ever been produced. By "recent", I mean since WWII.

The vast bulk of older keris that become available on the open market are in most cases not much more than junk. Certainly an older piece of high quality can be a very satisfying thing to either see, or have custody of, but the simple fact of the matter is that there are very few older keris of high quality, and when they do become available the price is almost always very high.

If one prefers old junk rather than recent high quality, then that is of course always a matter of personal preference. However, if one is a student of the keris, then to ignore the quality that is available in recently produced keris is clearly an attitude that contributes to a failure to increase knowledge.

Possibly many people do not wish to become students of the keris, but merely collectors of keris. I would suggest that to indulge in collection of anything in the absence of attempts to increase knowledge in that subject is an almost certain way to suffer financial loss.

I do hope that this thread you have started will attract some serious attention.

David · 20th May 2012, 11:22 PM

I agree whole-heartedly with Alan's post. While i do prefer a keris with history i think it is important that we do not disregard excellent work simply because the work is recent. Some of the finest examples of keris art is being produced today.

dbhmgb · 20th May 2012, 11:47 PM

I do find this interesting, because, I too, am very new to the keris and I am in the process of not only learning about it, but deciding what, or how, I want to collect.

I have a couple of relatively new kerises in my collection, one being my wilah with the Udan Mas pamor. I am really fond of this example and fully appreciate the skills needed to create it.

But, I'm torn at this point. Do I want a keris solely for it's technical aspects or am I attracted to the romantic (for lack of a better term) aura of an old blade. I do like to think, as I hold an older keris, about a Javanese man holding the same blade with great reverence many years ago.

Am I over analyzing this or do other folks have the same thoughts?

Rick · 21st May 2012, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbhmgb

Am I over analyzing this or do other folks have the same thoughts?

There is no spoon, Neo ...

I feel that if you want to experience the living art form that is the keris the (un-aged) new work shows you what can be accomplished .

Sometimes I feel that when we look at old keris we view mere shadows .

Esoteric stuff aside ....

A. G. Maisey · 21st May 2012, 01:44 AM

I started to collect edged weapons more than 60 years ago, when my collecting life was given a kick-start by my grandfather who passed his collection of edged weapons to me when I was 12 years old.

When I began to add to this collection with my own purchases, I did not have the confusing factor of recently produced keris (or other weapons). Everything available was old. Over time my interest polarised and for a long time now I have been principally interested in the keris.

When the keris culture began its renewal in Jawa during the 1970's, I had already been making regular visits to Jawa for some years. When the makers of Central Jawa began to increase in number, and then the makers of Madura and East Jawa began their rise, I was there to see it happen. I myself had already made keris before the Madura enclave had become a factor in the market-place.

The early attempts at making keris in the modern era were not particularly impressive, but this was more than 30 years ago. The quality of the best keris blades produced at the present time is equal to, or better than anything produced in the past.

In the case of keris dress, the hilts, scabbards, and other dress items, the quality of the very best production of recent years is without parallel.

In the past, only very wealthy people with the right connections could own very high quality keris, and the same is still true in the case of old keris (pre-WWII). Old keris of any quality are almost never seen for sale in the open market, and can only be reliably obtained if one has the right connections. And good, old keris do not come cheap. Pressure is on this segment of the market, and the price of anything old and good seems to increase every time I turn around.

However, very good recent keris are within the range of affordability that most people can aspire to.

Just because a keris is old, that does not make it a worthwhile acquisition. The vast bulk of old keris were never produced as something special, and most certainly were not produced by empus, nor with any spiritual intent. Old keris are simply that:- old. In appraising their worth or otherwise they should be subjected to evaluation of their characteristics, not just accepted because they have some age.

Take as a parallel, antique furniture. Two hundred years ago furniture was produced in various qualities, just as it is today. The best of this furniture is now highly regarded, but within the trade, it is well accepted that a piece of furniture of inferior quality when it was produced, is still of inferior quality now:- it was junk when it was made, and just because it is old does not make it of any higher quality now.

Would we prefer good quality new furniture, or junk quality old furniture?

Some people do have a preference for old things. In some respects I'm a bit this way myself. However, if one is a keris student/collector, as distinct from just somebody who likes old things, one does oneself a great disservice by failing to pay attention to, and appreciate the fine quality keris that are currently being produced.

How to structure a collection?

To my mind, there is only one answer to that:- we collect what we like, because ultimately each of us has to live with his collection.

This attitude of course gives the green light to the those who only want to collect old keris, no matter the quality, and this is fine, because that's what they like:- old. However, it is notable that as a collector's knowledge of the keris increases he usually reaches a point where he can see the mistakes in his early purchases, and at the same time appreciate the quality of recently produced keris. Time and experience will sometimes alter attitudes.

EDIT:-

I just noted your "shadows" reference Rick.

Absolutely spot-on.

I have just had the opportunity to closely examine very old keris in original condition.

There is no doubt that the vast bulk of old keris that we see now are just ghosts. The difference between a typical 17th century Mataram keris as found in Jawa now, and a 17th century Mataram keris that went to Europe when it was still close to new is immense. The new one is a solid, beefy substantial weapon; the one that we see in Jawa is a light, flimsy heavily eroded piece. A ghost.

dbhmgb · 21st May 2012, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The vast bulk of old keris were never produced as something special, and most certainly were not produced by empus, nor with any spiritual intent.

Alan,

Thank you for your reply - very enlightening. I quoted the one line because it is something I don't think I have ever read before. For me, it is quite profound and produced an attitude adjustment. There is quite a bit of "romanticism" enmeshed in all the keris lore and sorting the wheat from the chaff is part of the learning process and makes it all the more interesting.

Dan

19th May 2012, 12:47 PM	#1
Ismarsodo Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1	New Keris/Keris baru Dear Members, Let me introduce first, my name is Ismarsodo, a new member here, Indonesian n living in Jakarta. I'm very interest to discuss more about keris, all kind of keris (Java, Madura, Sumatera, Malay, etc.), original old keris/keris sepuh or new made. Is there any thread for new keris here? If no, I would like this thread to be a special thread for sharing new keris/new made or some people call as keris tangguh kamardikan, and also for discussion @ anything new keris. Let me share my collection first.. Name of Dapur: Kalanadah - Luk 5 Name of Pamor: Kelengan Warangka: Gayaman Solo Nagasari Wood Garap/made by Mujiyono/Ki Mangir 2011 Besalen: Mangiran, Malang Cheers, Attached Images

20th May 2012, 11:10 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Good to see you here, Ismarsodo, and welcome. Your proposal for an increase in serious discussion of recently made keris is in my opinion, well overdue. A long time ago there was a thread in our old forum that was directed at discussion of the elements that might be considered when a determination was being made as to whether a keris was "good", or "not good". The things that surfaced in this old thread are seldom, if ever, raised in discussion these days. There currently seems to be a fixation on whether or not a keris is "old", or in other words, "genuine", and thus of value, or whether it is "fake", meaning "recently produced". It saddens me when I see these sort of comments, and I have virtually stopped giving any attention to threads that fail to regard keris which have been recently produced as a legitimate continuation of cultural expression. Recently made keris can be some of the very finest expressions of keris art that have ever been produced. By "recent", I mean since WWII. The vast bulk of older keris that become available on the open market are in most cases not much more than junk. Certainly an older piece of high quality can be a very satisfying thing to either see, or have custody of, but the simple fact of the matter is that there are very few older keris of high quality, and when they do become available the price is almost always very high. If one prefers old junk rather than recent high quality, then that is of course always a matter of personal preference. However, if one is a student of the keris, then to ignore the quality that is available in recently produced keris is clearly an attitude that contributes to a failure to increase knowledge. Possibly many people do not wish to become students of the keris, but merely collectors of keris. I would suggest that to indulge in collection of anything in the absence of attempts to increase knowledge in that subject is an almost certain way to suffer financial loss. I do hope that this thread you have started will attract some serious attention.

20th May 2012, 11:22 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	I agree whole-heartedly with Alan's post. While i do prefer a keris with history i think it is important that we do not disregard excellent work simply because the work is recent. Some of the finest examples of keris art is being produced today.

20th May 2012, 11:47 PM	#4
dbhmgb Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 112	I do find this interesting, because, I too, am very new to the keris and I am in the process of not only learning about it, but deciding what, or how, I want to collect. I have a couple of relatively new kerises in my collection, one being my wilah with the Udan Mas pamor. I am really fond of this example and fully appreciate the skills needed to create it. But, I'm torn at this point. Do I want a keris solely for it's technical aspects or am I attracted to the romantic (for lack of a better term) aura of an old blade. I do like to think, as I hold an older keris, about a Javanese man holding the same blade with great reverence many years ago. Am I over analyzing this or do other folks have the same thoughts?

21st May 2012, 01:44 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	I started to collect edged weapons more than 60 years ago, when my collecting life was given a kick-start by my grandfather who passed his collection of edged weapons to me when I was 12 years old. When I began to add to this collection with my own purchases, I did not have the confusing factor of recently produced keris (or other weapons). Everything available was old. Over time my interest polarised and for a long time now I have been principally interested in the keris. When the keris culture began its renewal in Jawa during the 1970's, I had already been making regular visits to Jawa for some years. When the makers of Central Jawa began to increase in number, and then the makers of Madura and East Jawa began their rise, I was there to see it happen. I myself had already made keris before the Madura enclave had become a factor in the market-place. The early attempts at making keris in the modern era were not particularly impressive, but this was more than 30 years ago. The quality of the best keris blades produced at the present time is equal to, or better than anything produced in the past. In the case of keris dress, the hilts, scabbards, and other dress items, the quality of the very best production of recent years is without parallel. In the past, only very wealthy people with the right connections could own very high quality keris, and the same is still true in the case of old keris (pre-WWII). Old keris of any quality are almost never seen for sale in the open market, and can only be reliably obtained if one has the right connections. And good, old keris do not come cheap. Pressure is on this segment of the market, and the price of anything old and good seems to increase every time I turn around. However, very good recent keris are within the range of affordability that most people can aspire to. Just because a keris is old, that does not make it a worthwhile acquisition. The vast bulk of old keris were never produced as something special, and most certainly were not produced by empus, nor with any spiritual intent. Old keris are simply that:- old. In appraising their worth or otherwise they should be subjected to evaluation of their characteristics, not just accepted because they have some age. Take as a parallel, antique furniture. Two hundred years ago furniture was produced in various qualities, just as it is today. The best of this furniture is now highly regarded, but within the trade, it is well accepted that a piece of furniture of inferior quality when it was produced, is still of inferior quality now:- it was junk when it was made, and just because it is old does not make it of any higher quality now. Would we prefer good quality new furniture, or junk quality old furniture? Some people do have a preference for old things. In some respects I'm a bit this way myself. However, if one is a keris student/collector, as distinct from just somebody who likes old things, one does oneself a great disservice by failing to pay attention to, and appreciate the fine quality keris that are currently being produced. How to structure a collection? To my mind, there is only one answer to that:- we collect what we like, because ultimately each of us has to live with his collection. This attitude of course gives the green light to the those who only want to collect old keris, no matter the quality, and this is fine, because that's what they like:- old. However, it is notable that as a collector's knowledge of the keris increases he usually reaches a point where he can see the mistakes in his early purchases, and at the same time appreciate the quality of recently produced keris. Time and experience will sometimes alter attitudes. EDIT:- I just noted your "shadows" reference Rick. Absolutely spot-on. I have just had the opportunity to closely examine very old keris in original condition. There is no doubt that the vast bulk of old keris that we see now are just ghosts. The difference between a typical 17th century Mataram keris as found in Jawa now, and a 17th century Mataram keris that went to Europe when it was still close to new is immense. The new one is a solid, beefy substantial weapon; the one that we see in Jawa is a light, flimsy heavily eroded piece. A ghost.