A cannonball ... a pommel ... or what ?

fernando · 23rd December 2012, 04:19 PM

I have tried hard to take explicit pictures of this thing.
It came as a cannonball, one of those for grapeshot (diameter 4 cms. weight 280 grams).
But i don't know. To start, i wouldn't know that grapeshot balls could have a special shape.
This one has eight faces ... as if it were a pommel for a (sturdy) sword. But apart from a little (tooled) mark in one of the ends, i can find no traces of it being perforated to lodge a tang.
Any ideas Gentlemen ?

christek · 24th December 2012, 04:49 AM

Hello Fernando,

A difficult job identifying this ball,

If it is indeed a cannon ball, it could possibly be part of a grapeshot canister, but most of these that I have seen are of a more circular shape, as in the pic shown.

I am unsure of what the nick or mark may indicate, however;

I wonder if it could possibly be a ball for a naval swivel gun, the diameter of the ball is almost perfect size as swivel guns are among the smallest types of cannon, typically measuring less than 1 m (3 ft) in length and with a bore diameter of up to 3.5 cm (1¼ in); which appears to be the correct size of your artefact.

Just a thought

Kind regards,
Chris

M ELEY · 24th December 2012, 05:54 AM

Very interesting piece, whatever it is. I doubt that it is a swivel shot, although they did fire solid projectiles up to a 2lb cannon ball size (the kind favored by the colonists during the Amer Rev. Most swivels on ships and on fort walls fired a form of pigeon shot, like buck shot) The problem is that it isn't smooth. As pointed out time and again by the cannon enthusiasts (who are far more adapt than me in this area), to be fired from a cylindrical tube, it had to be smooth. Remember that ovoid ball we discussed in the past?

It still might be a grapeshot, as these were in another container and therefore didn't have to be completely smooth. The lead 'shot towers' I mentioned in past posts where the lead was literally poured from a tower's top into a water basin formed less than perfect grapeshot, but again, it was encased in something else. This item, encased with many others in a carcass or shell would create nasty wounds for sure.

fernando · 24th December 2012, 01:30 PM

Thanks for your input, Gentlemen
Indeed i though of all those possibilities, but the question remains that all they use round balls.
... Unless this is one of these atypical specimens for barrels with experimental bore sections, as recently discussed here ... in this case of octogonal section
I know that Professor Daehnhardt has acquired on of these from the source i got mine. I will try and find if he has an ace up his sleeve for this one.

cornelistromp · 24th December 2012, 11:35 PM

Hi fernando,

it is a counterweight for a scale, also sometimes old sword pommels are used.

best,

fernando · 25th December 2012, 02:39 PM

Thank you for that, Jasper.
However ... i can't resist asking you for further comments.
I was aware of pommels being used in scale counterweights, during their reincarnation. We can see a wide collection in the catalogue of the Schweizerischen Landesmuseum.
I also have one of the steelyard scales as shown, where i am using a cannonball weight for a load ... this also something i though was a one man's idea but have recently seen quite a few in two different collections.
My dilemma is: The object in discussion is hardly a pommel, as there is no trace of having had a hole for a sword tang. On the other hand, i can't imagine it having been made in purpose to be a weight, as hardly someone would care to give it a faceted shape for such linear use.
So ... what would have been the prior use this device ? It does look relatively old.

.

Norman McCormick · 27th December 2012, 04:40 PM

Hi Fernando,
I've just finished watching an episode of a show on U.K. television called The Antiques Roadshow. The military expert was discussing a ball from grapeshot that was supposedly dug out of the maintop of the Victory. Regardless of whether the story was true or not the interesting part from your point of view was that the expert identified the ball as definitely grapeshot that had been fired as it was not symmetrical but had dimples and facets where the shot had collided with each other when travelling up the barrel. He, the expert, was quite specific on this point and was adamant that he could identify the item as used grapeshot because of the facets and dimples. This would seem to add a lot of credence to your 'grapeshot ball'. Hope this helps.
My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 27th December 2012, 04:56 PM

Great stuff, Norman

But probably (potentialy) this is not the same case; the facets in mine look too perfect to be accidental ... but moulded before use, i'd say.
I wish i could have sight of the example they talk about

... But i will be digesting your post for a while, anyhow.
Thanks a lot

.

23rd December 2012, 04:19 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A cannonball ... a pommel ... or what ? I have tried hard to take explicit pictures of this thing. It came as a cannonball, one of those for grapeshot (diameter 4 cms. weight 280 grams). But i don't know. To start, i wouldn't know that grapeshot balls could have a special shape. This one has eight faces ... as if it were a pommel for a (sturdy) sword. But apart from a little (tooled) mark in one of the ends, i can find no traces of it being perforated to lodge a tang. Any ideas Gentlemen ? Attached Images

24th December 2012, 04:49 AM	#2
christek Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 52	Hello Fernando, A difficult job identifying this ball, If it is indeed a cannon ball, it could possibly be part of a grapeshot canister, but most of these that I have seen are of a more circular shape, as in the pic shown. I am unsure of what the nick or mark may indicate, however; I wonder if it could possibly be a ball for a naval swivel gun, the diameter of the ball is almost perfect size as swivel guns are among the smallest types of cannon, typically measuring less than 1 m (3 ft) in length and with a bore diameter of up to 3.5 cm (1¼ in); which appears to be the correct size of your artefact. Just a thought Kind regards, Chris Attached Images

24th December 2012, 11:35 PM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	Hi fernando, it is a counterweight for a scale, also sometimes old sword pommels are used. best, Attached Images

25th December 2012, 02:39 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you for that, Jasper. However ... i can't resist asking you for further comments. I was aware of pommels being used in scale counterweights, during their reincarnation. We can see a wide collection in the catalogue of the Schweizerischen Landesmuseum. I also have one of the steelyard scales as shown, where i am using a cannonball weight for a load ... this also something i though was a one man's idea but have recently seen quite a few in two different collections. My dilemma is: The object in discussion is hardly a pommel, as there is no trace of having had a hole for a sword tang. On the other hand, i can't imagine it having been made in purpose to be a weight, as hardly someone would care to give it a faceted shape for such linear use. So ... what would have been the prior use this device ? It does look relatively old. . Attached Images

24th December 2012, 05:54 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Very interesting piece, whatever it is. I doubt that it is a swivel shot, although they did fire solid projectiles up to a 2lb cannon ball size (the kind favored by the colonists during the Amer Rev. Most swivels on ships and on fort walls fired a form of pigeon shot, like buck shot) The problem is that it isn't smooth. As pointed out time and again by the cannon enthusiasts (who are far more adapt than me in this area), to be fired from a cylindrical tube, it had to be smooth. Remember that ovoid ball we discussed in the past? It still might be a grapeshot, as these were in another container and therefore didn't have to be completely smooth. The lead 'shot towers' I mentioned in past posts where the lead was literally poured from a tower's top into a water basin formed less than perfect grapeshot, but again, it was encased in something else. This item, encased with many others in a carcass or shell would create nasty wounds for sure.

24th December 2012, 01:30 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks for your input, Gentlemen Indeed i though of all those possibilities, but the question remains that all they use round balls. ... Unless this is one of these atypical specimens for barrels with experimental bore sections, as recently discussed here ... in this case of octogonal section I know that Professor Daehnhardt has acquired on of these from the source i got mine. I will try and find if he has an ace up his sleeve for this one.

27th December 2012, 04:40 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Fernando, I've just finished watching an episode of a show on U.K. television called The Antiques Roadshow. The military expert was discussing a ball from grapeshot that was supposedly dug out of the maintop of the Victory. Regardless of whether the story was true or not the interesting part from your point of view was that the expert identified the ball as definitely grapeshot that had been fired as it was not symmetrical but had dimples and facets where the shot had collided with each other when travelling up the barrel. He, the expert, was quite specific on this point and was adamant that he could identify the item as used grapeshot because of the facets and dimples. This would seem to add a lot of credence to your 'grapeshot ball'. Hope this helps. My Regards, Norman.

27th December 2012, 04:56 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Great stuff, Norman But probably (potentialy) this is not the same case; the facets in mine look too perfect to be accidental ... but moulded before use, i'd say. I wish i could have sight of the example they talk about ... But i will be digesting your post for a while, anyhow. Thanks a lot .