Accidental collector - old weapons ID assistance (Yao?)

[Jampot10]

Hello,
I found these old daggers / knives ? in a box of rusty tools I inherited from an Aunt. Had no idea that she had them and thought they might be gardening objects at first but thinking probably weapons.
Have trawled the net for similar and I'm starting to see that these might be Afghan or Indian. Based on patterning to grips - but really only guessing!
Ivory handle one is 14 inches long / wooden handle is 17 inches long. Have seen one knife similar to the Ivory handled one but not as big / I think the wooden handled one might be more unusual ?
Any information welcome as not even sure on age or even if these are real weapons - they are heavy though so suspect they are.
Hopefully images will come with this post but new to this so if they don't will try and post again.
J

[Sajen]

Hello,

welcome to the forum! We have discussed this sort of knives before, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=burma
Maybe this will be of help for you. I like your knife with the ivory handle.

Regards,
Detlef

[David R]

Very nice pieces, worth looking after.

[napoleon]

yes these i seem to think they are african cant remember why,but ive got one in a scabbard somewhere ill try and dig it out,does anyone actually know where these are from?

[Jampot10]

Thanks for all the help so far and for thread links.
Anyone able to give a definitive 19th or 20th century ?

[spiral]

Id guess as there different opinions over continents dating may be difficult. Id say definably pre.ww2 though... I wouldn't rule out late 19th century... etching to see the steel types would help that to a degree , I guess.

Looking at bolster & marks... this thread seems like they may be from a similar region...

spiral

linky

[Gavin Nugent]

Can't find it for the life of me but I do show a Kaskara with the stamps to the blade which these knives commonly carry...maybe someone else has the patience to dig through the posts.

Mods/Webmaster, a double drill down word search ability would certainly help with digging and research, i.e; once a word search is done and the list of posts is provided, there is another search function specifically available for those links presented.

Gavin

[Sajen]

There are several threads where this knives are discussed and never someone was able to pin down the origin, I've read Skandinavian, North Africa, Central Asia, Burma and the North of India. I personally would say somewhere between the last three, they have an Asian appearance to my eyes and I nearly want to bet that we have to look here to find the exact origin. Maybe the maker stamps can help by this.
Here can be seen more of this knives: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=khodmi

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Can't find it for the life of me but I do show a Kaskara with the stamps to the blade which these knives commonly carry...maybe someone else has the patience to dig through the posts.

Mods/Webmaster, a double drill down word search ability would certainly help with digging and research, i.e; once a word search is done and the list of posts is provided, there is another search function specifically available for those links presented.

Gavin

Likely would require a complete forum software upgrade, Gav.

[Lee]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Mods/Webmaster, a double drill down word search ability would certainly help with digging and research, i.e; once a word search is done and the list of posts is provided, there is another search function specifically available for those links presented.

Use Google as I do when looking for old threads...

Exactly as Emanuel shows
"site:www.vikingsword.com/vb kaskara"

/vb - new forum
/ubb - archive forum
or omit for site-wide

[Martin Lubojacky]

sorry, wanted to write neither north nor south

[Jampot10]

Again thank you for the comments posted. I find it really interesting that there are similar items about, this tends to suggest these are not one offs but a type specific to an area. Given this is it strange that these do not seem to have any formal identification ?
Or are they just so generic (simple) in style that they are a type that might have been used in various locations.
I guess as some have mentioned the key is the writing on the blades. I'm assuming this most likely to be a makers mark but maybe also a location or owner stamp.
I think this is what I will need to follow up - are there any linguists out there ?
These are the first knives I've owned ( purely through accident) but I can see already how this could become an obsessive hobby

[spiral]

It is strange, how little between us we know... There are dozens of these in existence, large numbers occurring in the UK.

You mentioned the Kaskara here Gav.

Would an advanced google search of just this forum for double searching terms, work?

linky..

But I cant find a kaskara in the thread..?

linky

& the one you linked to, is the same thread?



So I guess you either accidently got the link muddled or Ive mist another link in the thread where the Kaskara is shown?

To me the hilt looks , Dha from Assam?Burma?Thai regions, the riveted bolster looks NWF India, & the blade looks Burmese...

So I still guess Afghanistan to Laos, Tibet to Burma,

But it would be great if one day we can pin this down!

spiral

[Gavin Nugent]

Bummer Spiral....I did a two way link...well I thought I did...and I thought I linked the kaskara back to these threads too...when time permits...

[Emanuel]

Oh man, another one of these.

Google can search within websites by using the following syntax, then going to Images. It'll return all of the images from posts including the search word. This works with pretty much any website.

"site:www.vikingsword.com/vb kaskara"

I am still of the opinion that this is a North Indian / Assam / North Burmese piece, based on the bolster and the ivory handle. The circular motif is common to many different cultures around the world, and seen on the Bou-Saada daggers as well as on Afghan folding picks.

Here is an example from Akaal Arms without the circles.
Attached some examples of Tibetan knives that share many of the features of these knives (two if them from oriental-Arms) including the circular motif, and the non-integral bolster/ferrule.

Here is the last big thread we had on these knives

Regards,
Emanuel

[Jampot10]

I posted these a couple of days ago asking for Id help - thanks to everyone that replied. Ariel suggested checking British Museum and a search of the online archive provided the answers.
My view is that these are East African , Malawi / Mozambique / Tanzania area and would even go as far as to say they are Yao tribe origin.
I'm fairly confident of the attribution but for those that have time - please check the Britsh Museum online image archive. Dont think I'm allowed to give a link but :

British Museum home page - Collection online - Knife ivory ( in search box) - tick images only - then search. Scroll through the page and there will be at least 5 or 6 knives very similar to the Ivory one with strong attributions.

Perhaps there needs to be some further discussion about this before confirmation hence the new thread?

For those like me that originally suggested the Asian regions , the Yao tribe built up strong links with slave traders throughout the 19th century eventually converting to Islam around turn of 20th century. This might explain why the knives have influences from both cultures - which caused the difficulties in identification.

The items held by the British museum were mostly gifted in the 1920's and 40's. These were from the estates of persons that were in Africa in a colonial capacity at or around the turn of the century.

Please let me know your thoughts ?

[Gavin Nugent]

Well done. To save confusion, please link the threads and or place this information provided in the original thread

[Tim Simmons]

Hmmm, Still not convinced. Not that I know better. But look at the top Asian knife in the online collection. Through out the history of this site, time and time again examples of prestigious museum miss-identification have been brought to light.

[spiral]

I know what you mean Tim, but personally ill accept it for these... 3 out of 4 are provenanced to separate donors, all of whom only donated items from that region...

Unless someone can provide further evidence?

can someone merge these threads? as they are will just add further confusion to a possibly solved riddle...



spiral

ps.

I guess that's nothing new though...

[colin henshaw]

I don't see any way these knives could have been made in Sub-Saharan Africa. Maybe some made their way to East Africa from the Indian sub-continent, either as gifts to native chiefs, or trade items etc. The other possibility is simply that the museum got their attributions mixed up somehow.

[colin henshaw]

A small piece of interest on this subject (though perhaps not very relevant) - the famous African guide to several European 19th century explorers - "Sidi Mubarak Bombay" was a Yao tribesman. He spent several years in India as a young man, after having been captured as a slave when a child...

[spiral]

Jampot, I can see why you sy it but if it was Arabic script, many people on the website could read it....

That's interesting Colin...

Found a few photos & drawings of him, including this one hoping to see him wearing such a knife. {longshot obviously.}

But the visible sword, once again just looks European rather than African.

But all good knowledge & grist to the mill as they say in Yorkshire...

Spiral

[ariel]

I was also convinced that these knives were SE Asian.
But to deny their Malawi origin, I have to deny
A. Reputation and expertise of the British Museum, and
B. Testimony of 3 separate witnesses (donors) attributing each one of them to the same area in Africa.


Also, we are unaware of any other place in the world where similar type is found, weakening theory of their imported origin.

[spiral]

I totally agree with points A & B Ariel, & more or less agree with your third point. {Not that that rules it out.} Many wonderfull things made in Sheffield that many are/were unaware of Kachin Dow etc.

But could produced in Africa by Immigrant workers? That seems quite likely to me?

Failing that, produced in Africa by locals after an suitable apprenticeship would seem the only other likely possibility?


spiral

[colin henshaw]

Interestingly, this type of knife also appears on the National Museum of Scotland website, as coming from Malawi. H'mm, perhaps a rethink is required...

[Tim Simmons]

I can see how over generations of museum staff might perpetuate an original cataloging error, if this is the case? Future reference could then also be wrong. Having worked for the British Museum I know that not all ethnographic collection and donations {especially Africa ealier in the 20th century} were accurately recorded at the time of coming into collection, but often done many years later. This is a very confusing situation. The ram doa is surely an Asian artifact. What are we to make of the knives that are clearly derived from it, we cannot deny that?

[Gavin Nugent]

Tim, I think you were on the right path originally in this thread, meaning African.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5314

You also mention Ram Dao, but they are95% heavier forward curved weapons with the absence of such markings, nor are the markings to blade or hilt shared by other weapons of the regions of India or SEA.

Its hard to ignore the Kaskara stamp I presented when it looks so much like these;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=burma

There is also the pommel in post 56, page two here, nothing Asian in its shape;http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=khodmi

I am certain Central Asia can be dismissed.

To better support the origins, those with them could subject the hilts to scientific examination, ie African or Asian ivory....of course one could refute the data says ivory was heavily traded but I think with all the information at hand the origins have been firmly placed for now and this may support Africa too.

If an Asian flavour is felt in this knife, which I see by profile, both the English and the Sikhs with them were heavily found in Burma...perhaps just an industrious Brit with other service abroad was making some coin on the side as it is not a pure African creation by style?

[ariel]

It is impossible to exclude outside influence, immigrant manufacturer or skills acquired elsewhere.
But let's agree that the place of production was in Malawi and that the construction is not purely SE Asian ( as per Andrew) and not Afghani.

I am even willing to go farther: the incredible uniformity of these knives, their radical distinctness from the traditional local examples and their closeness of dating may (may!) suggest a single shop, perhaps even short-lived.

[spiral]

I concur these occur from Malawi, & perhaps were made there under either British or Indian supervision.

There are many others of related style, but lesser quality, Ive just found on a English dealers for sale website.

Obviously I cant link to or post them here, due to forum rules.

But if anyone would like the photos of several others including some possibly of more primitive style, Then just send me an email at spiraltwista@aol.com & Ill forward the photos. {Put Yao in the email title, so they don't go to spam..}

spiral