Karabela origin?

Valjhun · 27th January 2014, 10:27 PM

Dear Friends.

Here is a karabela aquired by a friend. What do you think about it?
It seems a hungarrian or polish to me, not islamic.

ariel · 27th January 2014, 11:46 PM

The only " european" feature that I am able to tentatively discern here is the broad fuller, and even that is questionable.

Karabelas were popular in Europe from Croatia to Poland, down to the Ukraine and Russia. They all share the commonality of the Ottoman origin, but their insane popularity in the anti-Ottoman camp ( see above) made the European examples numerically more abundant than their Turkish " parent".

Thus, statistically, I agree with you: much more likely to be Central/Easter European than Turkish. But.... they all look the same, with the exception of blades and decorations, and even that is difficult ( at least for me) to be certain about.... Perhaps, the place of acquisition can give the strongest hint.

Beautiful sabers...... Would love to have one....

Jim McDougall · 27th January 2014, 11:51 PM

Your friend is a lucky guy Valjhun! This appears to be a good 18th century example of a Polish karabela. The Islamic appearance would be well placed as these sabres evolved from the Siege of Vienna in 1683 where sabres of this form apparently were captured from Turks. The origin of the term has long been debated and one of the more plausible theories claims it derives from Kerbala in Western Turkey.
These became extremely popular with Polish troops and well known in events toward Polish independence in the late 18th century, later revived in the 19th as a patriotically oriented Polish sword used often in parade mounts.

This one appears to have a sound and reasonably early combat blade, nice patination on the guard and the stylized birdhead hilt has a chevron pattern similar to one in Ostrowski ("Polish Sabres:Thier Origins and Evolution" Jan Ostrowski, 1979) which is shown as Lvov made.

Crossed posts with Ariel, he is right that these became remarkably popular throughout Eastern Europe, but in my estimation that chevron feature seems most often associated with Polish examples. Most others have a greater degree of ostentatious motif aligned with the dress and parade status concept.

Jeff D · 28th January 2014, 10:17 PM

Any way to see more details of the blade?

Thanks
Jeff

Valjhun · 29th January 2014, 02:43 AM

Hi, tnx for your comments. Here are the pics.

kronckew · 29th January 2014, 10:24 AM

argh! now i have to wipe all the drool off my keyboard!

archer burak · 5th February 2014, 10:29 PM

Sorry but something is wrong Karabela is not coming from Kerbela and kara is colour name of Black bela means trouble

.... as a result of this karabela means black trouble and its pure Türkish not Polish , dont forget history friends Ottoman Empire land is all Balkans from 16th century who learn from Türks this form

and if you look carefuly youll see the yalman on the barell...

27th January 2014, 10:27 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Karabela origin? Dear Friends. Here is a karabela aquired by a friend. What do you think about it? It seems a hungarrian or polish to me, not islamic. Attached Images

29th January 2014, 02:43 AM	#5
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Hi, tnx for your comments. Here are the pics. Attached Images

27th January 2014, 11:46 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The only " european" feature that I am able to tentatively discern here is the broad fuller, and even that is questionable. Karabelas were popular in Europe from Croatia to Poland, down to the Ukraine and Russia. They all share the commonality of the Ottoman origin, but their insane popularity in the anti-Ottoman camp ( see above) made the European examples numerically more abundant than their Turkish " parent". Thus, statistically, I agree with you: much more likely to be Central/Easter European than Turkish. But.... they all look the same, with the exception of blades and decorations, and even that is difficult ( at least for me) to be certain about.... Perhaps, the place of acquisition can give the strongest hint. Beautiful sabers...... Would love to have one....

27th January 2014, 11:51 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Your friend is a lucky guy Valjhun! This appears to be a good 18th century example of a Polish karabela. The Islamic appearance would be well placed as these sabres evolved from the Siege of Vienna in 1683 where sabres of this form apparently were captured from Turks. The origin of the term has long been debated and one of the more plausible theories claims it derives from Kerbala in Western Turkey. These became extremely popular with Polish troops and well known in events toward Polish independence in the late 18th century, later revived in the 19th as a patriotically oriented Polish sword used often in parade mounts. This one appears to have a sound and reasonably early combat blade, nice patination on the guard and the stylized birdhead hilt has a chevron pattern similar to one in Ostrowski ("Polish Sabres:Thier Origins and Evolution" Jan Ostrowski, 1979) which is shown as Lvov made. Crossed posts with Ariel, he is right that these became remarkably popular throughout Eastern Europe, but in my estimation that chevron feature seems most often associated with Polish examples. Most others have a greater degree of ostentatious motif aligned with the dress and parade status concept.

28th January 2014, 10:17 PM	#4
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Any way to see more details of the blade? Thanks Jeff

29th January 2014, 10:24 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	argh! now i have to wipe all the drool off my keyboard!

5th February 2014, 10:29 PM	#7
archer burak Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: İstanbul Posts: 22	Sorry but something is wrong Karabela is not coming from Kerbela and kara is colour name of Black bela means trouble .... as a result of this karabela means black trouble and its pure Türkish not Polish , dont forget history friends Ottoman Empire land is all Balkans from 16th century who learn from Türks this form and if you look carefuly youll see the yalman on the barell...