Figuring out the age of a weapon

patkinson · 12th October 2011, 12:15 AM

Hey guys,

Im relatively new to the forum, I have been trolling through and tried to search for an answer but was not successful.

I was wondering if there was a write up or a creditable source where I can learn (start to learn) the key factors when trying to find the age of a weapon.

If anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated

Atlantia · 12th October 2011, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patkinson

Hey guys,

Im relatively new to the forum, I have been trolling through and tried to search for an answer but was not successful.

I was wondering if there was a write up or a creditable source where I can learn (start to learn) the key factors when trying to find the age of a weapon.

If anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated

Hi Patkinson,

Firstly welcome to the forums.

It's a BIG question to be honest.
There are often a number of factors that go into such a judgement.
And those factors are often dependant on the type of weapon being evaluated.
Often weapon types evolve over time, and knowing how they've evolved may give you a 'base' age to begin with or at least a starting point for jugding its age.
Sometimes you will look at the materials used, the patina and ageing of parts, the oxidisation of metals and the patina on wood, ageing of leather, types of materials used can also give hints: Silver, 'white metal', aluminium. Hand forged or machine made.
Comparisons with modern examples and known reproductions can factor in as well.

It's sometimes a bit of detective work.
My advice would be to start by seeing and handling as many examples as you can of old weapons and get a 'feel' for them.

Best
Gene

VANDOO · 12th October 2011, 09:40 PM

WELCOME TO THE FORUM

A DIFFICULT QUESTION TO BE SURE.
MORE MODERN WEAPONS ARE OF COURSE MUCH EASIER TO IDENTIFY AND PLACE AN AGE TO ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE MILATARY ISSUE AND NUMEROUS. THE ONES WITH A DATE STAMPED IN THE BLADE ARE ESPECIALLY HELPFUL

MANY EUROPEAN WEAPONS CAN BE PLACED THRU WRITTEN HISTORY AND WELL PROVENANCED EXAMPLES IN MUSEUMS.
ETHINOGRAPHIC WEAPONS BECOME MUCH MORE DIFFICULT, OFTEN IT IS EVEN UNKNOWN AS TO WHEN STEEL ARRIVED THRU TRADE IN AN AREA. IN SUCH CASES WE ONLY HAVE INFORMATION AS TO WHEN THE FIRST KNOWN CONTACT WAS MADE FOR EXAMPLE WHEN CAPTIAN COOK FIRST VISITED THE HAWAIIAN ISLANDS. WEAPONS COLLECTED AND DOCUMENTED ON THAT VOYAGE WOULD BE THE OLDEST BUT WHO KNOWS HOW LONG THEY HAD BEEN IN USE OR HOW OLD OR NEW THE EXAMPLES COLLECTED WERE AT THE TIME. BUT USUALLY WHO WAS FIRST IS UNKNOWN, PHONECIANS, VIKINGS, GREEKS OR EVEN ATLANTEANS MAY HAVE ARRIVED AND GONE LEAVING NO TRACE.

UNFORTUNATELY MUSEUMS SELDOM HAVE A COLLECTION SPANNING MANY YEARS OF A CULTURE. THIS WOULD HAVE SHOWN CHANGES IN FORM, WORKMANSHIP AND MATERIALS IN WEAPONS AS THEY EVOLVED AND WOULD HAVE BEEN A INVALUABLE RESOURCE FOR DATEING ARTEFACTS. ANOTHER FAILING IS OFTEN ONLY THE MOST IMPRESSIVE EXAMPLES WERE COLLECTED AND THE MORE COMMON FORMS IGNORED IN MUSEUM COLLECTIONS. SOME OLD COLLECTORS LIVING IN AN AREA MAY HAVE HAD COLLECTIONS SPANNING SEVERAL YEARS BUT USUALLY THE INFORMATION AND COLLECTIONS WERE LOST WHEN THE GRIM REAPER OVERTOOK THEM.
THAT IS ONE OF THE BEST THINGS ABOUT THIS FORUM, IF WE SHARE DATA IT PRESERVES WHAT LITTLE KNOWLEGE WE POSSESS AS WE OLDER COLLECTORS VANISH. SO MUCH HAS BEEN LOST JUST IN MY SHORT TIME COLLECTING SO THE LOSS IS IMEASURABLE THRUOUT HISTORY.

IN MOST AREAS WE HAVE NO RECORDS SHOWING WHEN TRADE STARTED OR WHEN DIFFERENT WAVES OF PEOPLE IMMIGRATED INTO THE AREA. SO UNTIL THE TIME MACHINE IS INVENTED WE ARE ADRIFT IN A SEA OF ????.
AS MENTIONED JUDGEING PATINA, MATERIALS, WORKMANSHIP AS WELL AS LOOKING UP DATED EXAMPLES WITH GOOD PROVENANCE IN MUSEUMS OR COLLECTIONS FOR COMPARISON IS THE BEST WE CAN CURRENTLY DO.
CARBON DATEING IS NOT VERY ACCURATE AND MANY THINGS CAN CONTAMINATE IT AND THROW IT OFF AND IT IS DESTRUCTIVE SO IS NOT A LOT OF HELP IN MANY CASES. THERE IS A NEWER METHOD BEING TRIED OUT INVOLVING LAZERS BUT IT IS AS YET NOT PROVEN AND I DON'T KNOW IF IT WORKS ON STEEL OR IRON.

Jens Nordlunde · 12th October 2011, 10:48 PM

Welcome to the forum.
I am wondering why you doesn't write which area you are interested in, as the difference is very big.

Jim McDougall · 13th October 2011, 12:51 AM

Patkinson, welcome to the forum. Obviously there is not really a finite answer to this broad question, but I think Gene and Vandoo have pretty much illustrated some of the elements involved. I think Jens has ventured a most pertinant observation as well.....if we have some idea of what type of weapon at least we might have a better platform to offer suggestions.

Your question is well placed, and one that I have often asked since I began studying arms well over four decades ago. There is no substitute for experience, and I have always been amazed at the ever growing core of knowledge amassed here. If you have been reading the threads you will see what I mean, and we welcome specific questions, so dont be afraid to ask.
Looking forward to hearing more on your interests !!!

All best regards,
Jim

patkinson · 13th October 2011, 01:34 AM

Wow guys, to be honest im shocked by the amount of information you guys have given. It is amazing to see such an active forum. So thank you all.

I am most interested in Middle Eastern weapons more specifically Jambiya's, Afghani Shamshir, and Talibons at the moment. Being fairly new to the scene this is what i have struck interest in the most. Also I am just starting my collection I will be trying to stick pre 1850's edged weapons.

I do have a Masters degree in Middle Eastern history with my main focus on the Mongols, unfortunately i haven't been able to find any true Mongol antiques and from what i have found it seems on the more or less extremely serious collector side of the price range, and I can obviously see why.

Once again thanks for all the info and i hope this some what narrows such a broad topic down.

KuKulzA28 · 13th October 2011, 03:30 AM

I'd just like to add, that when I came here I was oblivious too all the detail and history that goes into determining origin and age, etc. But I was very interested... and asked question after question, and read up as much as I could on the topics I was interested on. Only now am I slowly gaining a better understand. The gurus are right, it's almost an intuition you develop after handling and seeing many pieces, reading up on history, and discussing...

after awhile you can tell if something is real or fake... the region it could come from... the ethnic group perhaps... the time period, give or take a few decades. Sometmes knowing history can tell you why a sudden shift in styles occurred, or why a certain material became used for the fittings, or whatever...

like any study, it takes studying

just my 2 cents

Jens Nordlunde · 13th October 2011, 05:36 PM

To have chosen and area and a weapon type to collect, is not always easy, but when it is done the hard work start.

I have collected Indian swords and daggers for 40+ years, and have come to the conclusion, that especially in the first years of collection, books on the subject, and other bordering subjects, architecture and such are as important as collecting itself. Or maybe I should say, buy a handful of books, visit as many museums, and private collections as possible before you start buying any weapons.

Afghan shamshir blades are so much like Persian and Indian ones, that I doubt if many if any collectors, in most cases can see the difference. The Afghans also made a lot of other blade types besides the shamshir blades, and they exported these blades to Deccan and other places likely along the Silk Road, so it is a very big area you have chosen.

You should also be aware that sometimes the blades are older than the hilt; if decorated, they may be decorated at the time the blade was made, or maybe later, but it can also happen that the hilt is older than the blade, especially on Indian swords.

Happy hunting

12th October 2011, 12:15 AM	#1
patkinson Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 2	Figuring out the age of a weapon Hey guys, Im relatively new to the forum, I have been trolling through and tried to search for an answer but was not successful. I was wondering if there was a write up or a creditable source where I can learn (start to learn) the key factors when trying to find the age of a weapon. If anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated

12th October 2011, 09:40 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WELCOME TO THE FORUM A DIFFICULT QUESTION TO BE SURE. MORE MODERN WEAPONS ARE OF COURSE MUCH EASIER TO IDENTIFY AND PLACE AN AGE TO ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE MILATARY ISSUE AND NUMEROUS. THE ONES WITH A DATE STAMPED IN THE BLADE ARE ESPECIALLY HELPFUL MANY EUROPEAN WEAPONS CAN BE PLACED THRU WRITTEN HISTORY AND WELL PROVENANCED EXAMPLES IN MUSEUMS. ETHINOGRAPHIC WEAPONS BECOME MUCH MORE DIFFICULT, OFTEN IT IS EVEN UNKNOWN AS TO WHEN STEEL ARRIVED THRU TRADE IN AN AREA. IN SUCH CASES WE ONLY HAVE INFORMATION AS TO WHEN THE FIRST KNOWN CONTACT WAS MADE FOR EXAMPLE WHEN CAPTIAN COOK FIRST VISITED THE HAWAIIAN ISLANDS. WEAPONS COLLECTED AND DOCUMENTED ON THAT VOYAGE WOULD BE THE OLDEST BUT WHO KNOWS HOW LONG THEY HAD BEEN IN USE OR HOW OLD OR NEW THE EXAMPLES COLLECTED WERE AT THE TIME. BUT USUALLY WHO WAS FIRST IS UNKNOWN, PHONECIANS, VIKINGS, GREEKS OR EVEN ATLANTEANS MAY HAVE ARRIVED AND GONE LEAVING NO TRACE. UNFORTUNATELY MUSEUMS SELDOM HAVE A COLLECTION SPANNING MANY YEARS OF A CULTURE. THIS WOULD HAVE SHOWN CHANGES IN FORM, WORKMANSHIP AND MATERIALS IN WEAPONS AS THEY EVOLVED AND WOULD HAVE BEEN A INVALUABLE RESOURCE FOR DATEING ARTEFACTS. ANOTHER FAILING IS OFTEN ONLY THE MOST IMPRESSIVE EXAMPLES WERE COLLECTED AND THE MORE COMMON FORMS IGNORED IN MUSEUM COLLECTIONS. SOME OLD COLLECTORS LIVING IN AN AREA MAY HAVE HAD COLLECTIONS SPANNING SEVERAL YEARS BUT USUALLY THE INFORMATION AND COLLECTIONS WERE LOST WHEN THE GRIM REAPER OVERTOOK THEM. THAT IS ONE OF THE BEST THINGS ABOUT THIS FORUM, IF WE SHARE DATA IT PRESERVES WHAT LITTLE KNOWLEGE WE POSSESS AS WE OLDER COLLECTORS VANISH. SO MUCH HAS BEEN LOST JUST IN MY SHORT TIME COLLECTING SO THE LOSS IS IMEASURABLE THRUOUT HISTORY. IN MOST AREAS WE HAVE NO RECORDS SHOWING WHEN TRADE STARTED OR WHEN DIFFERENT WAVES OF PEOPLE IMMIGRATED INTO THE AREA. SO UNTIL THE TIME MACHINE IS INVENTED WE ARE ADRIFT IN A SEA OF ????. AS MENTIONED JUDGEING PATINA, MATERIALS, WORKMANSHIP AS WELL AS LOOKING UP DATED EXAMPLES WITH GOOD PROVENANCE IN MUSEUMS OR COLLECTIONS FOR COMPARISON IS THE BEST WE CAN CURRENTLY DO. CARBON DATEING IS NOT VERY ACCURATE AND MANY THINGS CAN CONTAMINATE IT AND THROW IT OFF AND IT IS DESTRUCTIVE SO IS NOT A LOT OF HELP IN MANY CASES. THERE IS A NEWER METHOD BEING TRIED OUT INVOLVING LAZERS BUT IT IS AS YET NOT PROVEN AND I DON'T KNOW IF IT WORKS ON STEEL OR IRON.

12th October 2011, 10:48 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Welcome to the forum. I am wondering why you doesn't write which area you are interested in, as the difference is very big.

13th October 2011, 12:51 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Patkinson, welcome to the forum. Obviously there is not really a finite answer to this broad question, but I think Gene and Vandoo have pretty much illustrated some of the elements involved. I think Jens has ventured a most pertinant observation as well.....if we have some idea of what type of weapon at least we might have a better platform to offer suggestions. Your question is well placed, and one that I have often asked since I began studying arms well over four decades ago. There is no substitute for experience, and I have always been amazed at the ever growing core of knowledge amassed here. If you have been reading the threads you will see what I mean, and we welcome specific questions, so dont be afraid to ask. Looking forward to hearing more on your interests !!! All best regards, Jim

13th October 2011, 01:34 AM	#6
patkinson Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 2	Wow guys, to be honest im shocked by the amount of information you guys have given. It is amazing to see such an active forum. So thank you all. I am most interested in Middle Eastern weapons more specifically Jambiya's, Afghani Shamshir, and Talibons at the moment. Being fairly new to the scene this is what i have struck interest in the most. Also I am just starting my collection I will be trying to stick pre 1850's edged weapons. I do have a Masters degree in Middle Eastern history with my main focus on the Mongols, unfortunately i haven't been able to find any true Mongol antiques and from what i have found it seems on the more or less extremely serious collector side of the price range, and I can obviously see why. Once again thanks for all the info and i hope this some what narrows such a broad topic down.

13th October 2011, 03:30 AM	#7
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	I'd just like to add, that when I came here I was oblivious too all the detail and history that goes into determining origin and age, etc. But I was very interested... and asked question after question, and read up as much as I could on the topics I was interested on. Only now am I slowly gaining a better understand. The gurus are right, it's almost an intuition you develop after handling and seeing many pieces, reading up on history, and discussing... after awhile you can tell if something is real or fake... the region it could come from... the ethnic group perhaps... the time period, give or take a few decades. Sometmes knowing history can tell you why a sudden shift in styles occurred, or why a certain material became used for the fittings, or whatever... like any study, it takes studying just my 2 cents

13th October 2011, 05:36 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	To have chosen and area and a weapon type to collect, is not always easy, but when it is done the hard work start. I have collected Indian swords and daggers for 40+ years, and have come to the conclusion, that especially in the first years of collection, books on the subject, and other bordering subjects, architecture and such are as important as collecting itself. Or maybe I should say, buy a handful of books, visit as many museums, and private collections as possible before you start buying any weapons. Afghan shamshir blades are so much like Persian and Indian ones, that I doubt if many if any collectors, in most cases can see the difference. The Afghans also made a lot of other blade types besides the shamshir blades, and they exported these blades to Deccan and other places likely along the Silk Road, so it is a very big area you have chosen. You should also be aware that sometimes the blades are older than the hilt; if decorated, they may be decorated at the time the blade was made, or maybe later, but it can also happen that the hilt is older than the blade, especially on Indian swords. Happy hunting