Anglo-Indian army swords

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ok, I admit it at once; I dont know anything about these swords, but on another thread it seems as if Chris, Simon and Jim knows a lot, so this thread is for them and others who want to join.

In the picture you see Major-General (I dont think he had that title then) Richard Hilton (b. 1894 d. 1981 at the age of 87 years) together with a few Indian officers - one seems to be sleeping.
Hilton was an artillry officer and did service for 15 years in India. During WWII he was moved to Europe(?) where he participated in several of the important battels.
He wrote several books, one of them about the Mutiny in 1857.

[sirupate]

I confess to knowing very little Jens, and what little I do know I have gleaned from other esteemed writers and collectors such as yourselves and Robert Wilkinson-Latham.
And also from books like 'Swordsman of the British Empire' and 'Through The Indian Mutiny' etc
I started to collect Indian sabres influenced by the 1796 LCS, but family life put an end to that!
I am in the hope that this thread gets going so I can learn more, all the best Simon
PS great photo Jens

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Jens!
I am looking forward to what we can develop on this thread which will attend to these interesting regimental and hybrid forms, which of course were concurrent to the traditional form discussed on your other thread

I think one instance (which I need to retrieve the source) where British soldiers were amazed at the incredible (though ghastly) effectiveness of the Indian swordsmen with their tulwars. To their astonishment, they soon discovered that these tulwars were often mounted with British blades, mostly from their now obsolete M1796 light cavalry sabres, but honed razor sharp.
I have seen a good number of these, one with an Osborne & Gunby blade, another, actually a M1788 blade in a 'Persian shamshir' style hilt, and of course others.
When British swords contractors began supplying swords to the native cavalry regiments, it is interesting to note that some of these, notably Bourne & Son, continued making the M1796 stirrup hilt type into the late 19th century due to their extreme favor by the Indian troopers .

The famed Wilkinson Sword Co. produced many swords for the Indian units, and if I recall they came in varied blade lengths, according to preferences in Bengal and Madras. These were also of another supplanted pattern, the M1822 light cavalry sabre, and in the Wilkinson catalogs known as the 'colonial style', with the three bar 'gothic ' style hilt.
A good number of these were made by MOLE, Robert Mole * Co. of Birmingham, in around the 1880s and were subcontractors to Wilkinson.
I have seen cast brass hilt of traditional tulwar form also produced by Mole.

In one of the books written by Wilkinson, there are listings of the type or pattern swords preferred by various units, and as mentioned. I need to find it!

Some of the units chose the M1853 pattern cavalry sword, and in a most interesting case, a number of these were produce by a private firm, the Rodwell Co. for one of the railways! Many of the large firms and organizations maintained their own security forces, such as with this case .


These are just opening thoughts recollected to get things going, and I really look forward to additions and observations. Meanwhile, to see if I can find those notes!!!

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The famed Wilkinson Sword Co. produced many swords for the Indian units, and if I recall they came in varied blade lengths, according to preferences in Bengal and Madras. These were also of another supplanted pattern, the M1822 light cavalry sabre, and in the Wilkinson catalogs known as the 'colonial style', with the three bar 'gothic ' style hilt.

Just to get the ball rolling, here is one such catalogue advertisement, dating to 1912. Some of these patterns had very long service lives.

[Tim Simmons]

Something like this.http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=Indian+art

[A.alnakkas]

Hello,

I have a sabre with a European influenced hilt but an Indian blade. The hilt has Urdu script on it so could be from Afghanistan or modern day Pakistan. Will share photos soonish :-)))

[sirupate]

Great link Ted,
Scott I think Robert Wilkinson-Latham put similar pictures up on SFI with details if I remember correctly

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Something like this.http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=Indian+art

That's an interesting sword Tim,

I had one of those in my collection. The hilt is certainly based on the 1853 type, and I had a whole subsection of swords with various styles of hilt and blades which looked like they had been chopped together from various pattern designs!

Back to you're sword, I shall have to check my notes to see if a unit attribution was ever made for it. I can't remember if mine was marked or not.

Kind regards,

Chris

[mrcjgscott]

Here is a comparison shot between an early 1796 pattern light cavalry troopers sword (produced 1798) and an Indian Cavalry sword with three bar hilt.

Note the similarity in blade shape. Some of these early 1796 patterns were used in India in there own right by East India Company units, as were old stocks of the 1788 LC sword.
I have also seen original 1796 blades rehilted with the three bar hilt for Indian use.

However, the design proved so popular that 1796 style blades were reproduced under various guises right up until at least the First World War.

Robert Wilkinson Latham and I have shared various correspondence and images over the years. I shall ask him if he will give me permission to share some images from Wilkinson circa 1914, showing these 1796 style blades being finished.

There also similar British made blades, known as "Paget" pattern, which are not as beefy as the 1796 style, but do feature on many Indian cavalry swords with distinctive broad curved cutting blades which remained popular in Indian service, long after the much straighter and only slightly curved cut & thrust type sword became prevalent in UK service.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much Jens!
I am looking forward to what we can develop on this thread which will attend to these interesting regimental and hybrid forms, which of course were concurrent to the traditional form discussed on your other thread

I think one instance (which I need to retrieve the source) where British soldiers were amazed at the incredible (though ghastly) effectiveness of the Indian swordsmen with their tulwars. To their astonishment, they soon discovered that these tulwars were often mounted with British blades, mostly from their now obsolete M1796 light cavalry sabres, but honed razor sharp.
I have seen a good number of these, one with an Osborne & Gunby blade, another, actually a M1788 blade in a 'Persian shamshir' style hilt, and of course others.
When British swords contractors began supplying swords to the native cavalry regiments, it is interesting to note that some of these, notably Bourne & Son, continued making the M1796 stirrup hilt type into the late 19th century due to their extreme favor by the Indian troopers .

The famed Wilkinson Sword Co. produced many swords for the Indian units, and if I recall they came in varied blade lengths, according to preferences in Bengal and Madras. These were also of another supplanted pattern, the M1822 light cavalry sabre, and in the Wilkinson catalogs known as the 'colonial style', with the three bar 'gothic ' style hilt.
A good number of these were made by MOLE, Robert Mole * Co. of Birmingham, in around the 1880s and were subcontractors to Wilkinson.
I have seen cast brass hilt of traditional tulwar form also produced by Mole.

In one of the books written by Wilkinson, there are listings of the type or pattern swords preferred by various units, and as mentioned. I need to find it!

Some of the units chose the M1853 pattern cavalry sword, and in a most interesting case, a number of these were produce by a private firm, the Rodwell Co. for one of the railways! Many of the large firms and organizations maintained their own security forces, such as with this case .


These are just opening thoughts recollected to get things going, and I really look forward to additions and observations. Meanwhile, to see if I can find those notes!!!

Jim mentioned in this thread a variety of British influences on Indian blades. Below are some examples of Indian blades and one Afghan one that borrow both from British characteristics/styles/makes that blade smiths sought to mimic, combined with hundreds of years old native influences.

[CharlesS]

More pics of the poulowar....note also the military style steel chape.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Charles,
Interesting pictures - I have ligthened the Afghan one so you see the details better.
The Afghan hilt is quite unusual, and the hand guard added later - a very nice one.

[Jim McDougall]

OMG!!! THIS THREAD IS PHENOMENAL!!!
Thank you so much everybody for these amazing entries, and now that I catch my breath, Charles, that is the most amazing example of these British Raj hybrids I have ever seen! the paluoar!!! and then there is the tulwar with British 'gothic' folding guard!!

Chris, I cannot thank you enough for being the motivator in creating this thread as you have well initiated more activity in the study of the Indian tulwar concurrently on its own thread.

I think this is a textbook example of how to split an interesting item or topic from one thread to another so that the comingling does not defeat discussion on either. Jens, thank you for starting this thread, and everyone for participating with such great entries .

Chris, note on Charles 'paluaor' the fluting and the quadranted cross guard. This is what I was mentioning on the tulwars Jens and I were talking about on the tulwars from these Northwest regions. I would point out that Afghanistan in these times was distinctly considered part of India. Also that these 'paluoars' are actually a form of tulwar, notably associated with Afghan regions and reflecting Deccani and Mughal influences.

Charles, it is fascinating to see this blade, especially designated to MOLE!
It looks like watered steel, and with my incredibly poor understanding of the metallurgy of these blades, how is that possible ? I have seen plain tulwars attributed to MOLE, but nothing like this.

Its great that you guys have been in touch with Mr Wilkinson-Latham, who is probably one of the most phenomenal knowledge bases on these swords and Indian army weaponry. I do hope we might see some of the material mentioned here.

Chris, well noted on those 'Paget' pattern sabres, which indeed were M1822 hilts, and as mentioned, using the distinct heavier M1796 type blades.
I have only one of these (by MOLE) designated to 21C, 21st cavalry (Dalys Horse if I recall) which was in the Frontier Field Force.

Shake the Trees , still looking for data on Poona Horse, and also would like to see a sword of thiers!
I have seen Bombay Cavalry examples, but those are only ones so far that I can recall.

Thank you everyone, this is a great discussion.
and Charles, thank you again so much for that 'centerfold' !!! paluoar and the tulwar with British guard.

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Jim mentioned in this thread a variety of British influences on Indian blades. Below are some examples of Indian blades and one Afghan one that borrow both from British characteristics/styles/makes that blade smiths sought to mimic, combined with hundreds of years old native influences.

Charles, those are some truly jaw dropping pieces! Thank you so much for posting them up here. Simply stunning!

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Chris, I cannot thank you enough for being the motivator in creating this thread as you have well initiated more activity in the study of the Indian tulwar concurrently on its own thread.

The pleasure is all mine. It is refreshing to be part of a forum which is so willing to freely share information for the greater benefit of all members.

Many thanks for pointing out the subtle stylistic differences on these tulwars. It is so important to note such clues, especially when dipping ones toe in an unfamiliar collecting area.

I have been in touch with Robert, and he has very graciously given me permission to reproduce his photographs and information here, which I shall do in due course. Robert is the very epitome of a true researcher, and his generous approach of freely sharing his discoveries and information is an inspiration to all.

Kind regards,

Chris

[scinde]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

OMG!!! THIS THREAD IS PHENOMENAL!!!
Thank you so much everybody for these amazing entries, and now that I catch my breath, Charles, that is the most amazing example of these British Raj hybrids I have ever seen! the paluoar!!! and then there is the tulwar with British 'gothic' folding guard!!

Chris, I cannot thank you enough for being the motivator in creating this thread as you have well initiated more activity in the study of the Indian tulwar concurrently on its own thread.

I think this is a textbook example of how to split an interesting item or topic from one thread to another so that the comingling does not defeat discussion on either. Jens, thank you for starting this thread, and everyone for participating with such great entries .

Chris, note on Charles 'paluaor' the fluting and the quadranted cross guard. This is what I was mentioning on the tulwars Jens and I were talking about on the tulwars from these Northwest regions. I would point out that Afghanistan in these times was distinctly considered part of India. Also that these 'paluoars' are actually a form of tulwar, notably associated with Afghan regions and reflecting Deccani and Mughal influences.

Charles, it is fascinating to see this blade, especially designated to MOLE!
It looks like watered steel, and with my incredibly poor understanding of the metallurgy of these blades, how is that possible ? I have seen plain tulwars attributed to MOLE, but nothing like this.

Its great that you guys have been in touch with Mr Wilkinson-Latham, who is probably one of the most phenomenal knowledge bases on these swords and Indian army weaponry. I do hope we might see some of the material mentioned here.

Chris, well noted on those 'Paget' pattern sabres, which indeed were M1822 hilts, and as mentioned, using the distinct heavier M1796 type blades.
I have only one of these (by MOLE) designated to 21C, 21st cavalry (Dalys Horse if I recall) which was in the Frontier Field Force.

Shake the Trees , still looking for data on Poona Horse, and also would like to see a sword of thiers!
I have seen Bombay Cavalry examples, but those are only ones so far that I can recall.

Thank you everyone, this is a great discussion.
and Charles, thank you again so much for that 'centerfold' !!! paluoar and the tulwar with British guard.

Hi Jim,

Just new to this forum and mainly interested in EIC and Indian Army, and wonder if I can ask specifically how your 21st Cavalry sword is identified. Would it be with the numerals 21 encircled with a large capital "C"?; and could you also mention the length of the blade, width at ricasso, and whether or not the blade is swamped and broadens before the point.

Gordon

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
This old thread should be of interest. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...h+made+tulwars


Regards,
Norman.