Oldest dated flyssa - appeal to EU/Spanish forumites

Emanuel · 21st April 2010, 01:50 AM

In her work, Sabres Kabyles (Journal de la Societe des Africanistes XXVIII, 1958) Camille Lacoste-Dujardin noted that the oldest dated flyssa was one presented to Spanish King Ferdinand VII in 1827 by Don Pedro Ortiz de Guzasti, Spanish consul to the Kingdom of Algiers. That reference came from the Catalogo de la Real Armeria de Madrid (Valencia de Don Juan, 1898). This catalogue is available online, scanned courtesy of google (http://www.archive.org/details/catlo...rico00madrgoog), and the relevant bit identifies the flyssa as "G.170. Flissa de las kabilas", describes it and notes its length, 1,030mm.

Could any of our Spanish or Eu members try to track down and photograph this flyssa next time they pass by Madrid and visit the royal armoury? It would be interesting to compare this dated example to other ones and try to date some features.

Thanks
Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 21st April 2010, 04:20 AM

Excellent post Emanuel!!! and thank you for the detailed cites for reference.
As you and I both know, we have long tried to establish the earliest known example of these distinct swords of the Kabyles, and this has remained one of the mysteries of ethnographic edged weapons.

It is interesting that this 1898 catalog by the Conde de Valencia de San Juan was the basis for Albert F. Calvert's 1907 "Spanish Arms & Armour". In the introduction he expresses gratitude to Don Lacoste.....I wonder of there might be a connection to Camille Lacost-Dujardin?

I hope our friends in Spain might help with the flyssa noted (G170). As I have mentioned in earlier discussions, the earliest provenanced example I have found was in the museum of the French Foreign Legion in France, and it was taken on campaign against Kabyles in 1857. In form and general motif it is identical to the well known form we see in collections.

All best regards,
Jim

Emanuel · 6th June 2012, 07:22 AM

Hi everyone,

It's taken some time, but I finally got a picture of the flyssa at the Real Armeria in Madrid. Happily it is in very good condition, it still retains a leather belt and buckle.

At first glance, it is nearly identical to the classical flyssa form we know (see some of the flyssa in my collection, Dom's flyssa, and Madsen's flyssafor comparison). There are some differences though, most striking being the scabbard and the hilt. The scabbard has simpler carving, while the hilt's floral decoration is fuller and much better defined. No scratches. Every scroll is fully formed. Notice also the lack of "eye". The dog or camel head is blind. Only floral scrolls. I wonder if this was a one-off. Anyway, lots of questions come to mind.

This example does show that the flyssa as we know it was fully developed by 1827.

I realize the picture I attached has poor resolution. I will re-post better shots in a few days.

Any thoughts?

Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 6th June 2012, 06:17 PM

Thank you so much for the update on this ever unresolved conundrum of the unique 'flyssa' Emanuel!!! Your tenacity is amazing and this is absolutely wonderful followup, exactly what is essential to discovering the deeply clouded past and development of these and many ethnographic sword forms.

Since the work of Ms. LaCoste, few arms scholars have undertaken any sort of serious approach to these mysterious and distinct swords aside from Louis-Pierre Cavalliere and you, leaving most of the description of these to the typical assumptions.

As you have noted, the apparant form itself seems to have been developed by the time of this example presented to the Spanish envoy in 1827. It seems that along with the form itself, many of the decorative designs and motif are essentially like the examples into the 1850s and beyond, and I have always been fascinated by thier origins and meanings as well. Here again, these do not seem to have been studied or analyzed beyond the work of LaCoste, and attempts to discuss them have not revealed much.

I recall however some years ago trying to learn more about an unusual 'hourglass' shaped image or device on the blade of one example I had which seemed unusual. As nearly as could be determined this represented a drum, an important symbol of rank or status in Berber and Saharan tribal heirachy.

It seems that the ancestry of the flyssa debate remains at a level of impasse and has been dormant for years with some still contesting the probable source of these unique swords to Ottoman yataghans. While it seems clear that Byzantine decorative motif is likely in the characteristic designs in much of the flyssa's motif, the deep bellied blade seems likely to derive from the early versions of the yataghan. The early Meditteranean weapons that are claimed to be the true ancestors probably are in degree through the same groups of swords that indeed came from the kopis and associated variations. However there is no progressive chronological line of development which can support direct descent from the ancient weapons, and the relatively recent development in my opinion looks to the Ottoman yataghan of straight back and deep belly form.
Interestly there is an example or possibly form of this type known in Italy from the 18th century (seen in Boccia & Coelho) which looks remarkably like the flyssa. This of course begs the question, did these also develop from the Ottoman weapons from the conflicts between them and the North Italian city states, and could the form have diffused through the profound trade in North Africa and North Italy? Clearly other Italian forms have been the source of influence for numbers of North African edged weapons well established in these pages on the forum, so is this a plausible suggestion?

The only qualifying suggestion that might redirect to the Ottoman influence without the Italian twist is that the Kabyles, while not as I understand ever taken over by the Ottomans, had powerful influence from them. The flyssa is held in Kabyle tradition as the key element in a young mans rite of passage, and he must obtain his sword as well as his 'fortune' in order to marry (as I was once told). While the traditional flyssa of course is the standard however the yataghan is admired even beyond these, and I wonder if that affinity for these Ottoman weapons as influential symbols of status may have led to the earlier and distinctly Berber form which has become known as the flyssa.

All best regards,
Jim

Emanuel · 15th June 2012, 06:12 AM

Hi Jim,

Thanks for coming in on this

I will look for the Boccia & Coelho reference you mention. Are you thinking of a sword like the storta?

I will be back home in a few days and will upload higher resolution pics of this flyssa and others and maybe make an inventory of all the markings on the documented examples. I will also check them with those reported by Lacoste-Dujardin.

The flyssa's misteries have not been exhausted yet

All the best!
Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 15th June 2012, 06:32 AM

Hi Emanuel,
Actually I think the Boccia & Coelho example is more like a dagger, I'll see if I can possibly get a scan of the illustration. It is a monster book and not sure my scanner will allow, maybe a photo will do.

Looking forward to the pics and inventory of the markings in LaCoste....absolutely the mysteries of the flyssa remain elusive, but they cannot be forever with you on the trail!!

Its good to have you back here on the adventure!

All the best,
Jim

21st April 2010, 01:50 AM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Oldest dated flyssa - appeal to EU/Spanish forumites In her work, Sabres Kabyles (Journal de la Societe des Africanistes XXVIII, 1958) Camille Lacoste-Dujardin noted that the oldest dated flyssa was one presented to Spanish King Ferdinand VII in 1827 by Don Pedro Ortiz de Guzasti, Spanish consul to the Kingdom of Algiers. That reference came from the Catalogo de la Real Armeria de Madrid (Valencia de Don Juan, 1898). This catalogue is available online, scanned courtesy of google (http://www.archive.org/details/catlo...rico00madrgoog), and the relevant bit identifies the flyssa as "G.170. Flissa de las kabilas", describes it and notes its length, 1,030mm. Could any of our Spanish or Eu members try to track down and photograph this flyssa next time they pass by Madrid and visit the royal armoury? It would be interesting to compare this dated example to other ones and try to date some features. Thanks Emanuel

6th June 2012, 07:22 AM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Oldest dated flyssa Hi everyone, It's taken some time, but I finally got a picture of the flyssa at the Real Armeria in Madrid. Happily it is in very good condition, it still retains a leather belt and buckle. At first glance, it is nearly identical to the classical flyssa form we know (see some of the flyssa in my collection, Dom's flyssa, and Madsen's flyssafor comparison). There are some differences though, most striking being the scabbard and the hilt. The scabbard has simpler carving, while the hilt's floral decoration is fuller and much better defined. No scratches. Every scroll is fully formed. Notice also the lack of "eye". The dog or camel head is blind. Only floral scrolls. I wonder if this was a one-off. Anyway, lots of questions come to mind. This example does show that the flyssa as we know it was fully developed by 1827. I realize the picture I attached has poor resolution. I will re-post better shots in a few days. Any thoughts? Emanuel Attached Images

21st April 2010, 04:20 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Excellent post Emanuel!!! and thank you for the detailed cites for reference. As you and I both know, we have long tried to establish the earliest known example of these distinct swords of the Kabyles, and this has remained one of the mysteries of ethnographic edged weapons. It is interesting that this 1898 catalog by the Conde de Valencia de San Juan was the basis for Albert F. Calvert's 1907 "Spanish Arms & Armour". In the introduction he expresses gratitude to Don Lacoste.....I wonder of there might be a connection to Camille Lacost-Dujardin? I hope our friends in Spain might help with the flyssa noted (G170). As I have mentioned in earlier discussions, the earliest provenanced example I have found was in the museum of the French Foreign Legion in France, and it was taken on campaign against Kabyles in 1857. In form and general motif it is identical to the well known form we see in collections. All best regards, Jim

6th June 2012, 06:17 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Thank you so much for the update on this ever unresolved conundrum of the unique 'flyssa' Emanuel!!! Your tenacity is amazing and this is absolutely wonderful followup, exactly what is essential to discovering the deeply clouded past and development of these and many ethnographic sword forms. Since the work of Ms. LaCoste, few arms scholars have undertaken any sort of serious approach to these mysterious and distinct swords aside from Louis-Pierre Cavalliere and you, leaving most of the description of these to the typical assumptions. As you have noted, the apparant form itself seems to have been developed by the time of this example presented to the Spanish envoy in 1827. It seems that along with the form itself, many of the decorative designs and motif are essentially like the examples into the 1850s and beyond, and I have always been fascinated by thier origins and meanings as well. Here again, these do not seem to have been studied or analyzed beyond the work of LaCoste, and attempts to discuss them have not revealed much. I recall however some years ago trying to learn more about an unusual 'hourglass' shaped image or device on the blade of one example I had which seemed unusual. As nearly as could be determined this represented a drum, an important symbol of rank or status in Berber and Saharan tribal heirachy. It seems that the ancestry of the flyssa debate remains at a level of impasse and has been dormant for years with some still contesting the probable source of these unique swords to Ottoman yataghans. While it seems clear that Byzantine decorative motif is likely in the characteristic designs in much of the flyssa's motif, the deep bellied blade seems likely to derive from the early versions of the yataghan. The early Meditteranean weapons that are claimed to be the true ancestors probably are in degree through the same groups of swords that indeed came from the kopis and associated variations. However there is no progressive chronological line of development which can support direct descent from the ancient weapons, and the relatively recent development in my opinion looks to the Ottoman yataghan of straight back and deep belly form. Interestly there is an example or possibly form of this type known in Italy from the 18th century (seen in Boccia & Coelho) which looks remarkably like the flyssa. This of course begs the question, did these also develop from the Ottoman weapons from the conflicts between them and the North Italian city states, and could the form have diffused through the profound trade in North Africa and North Italy? Clearly other Italian forms have been the source of influence for numbers of North African edged weapons well established in these pages on the forum, so is this a plausible suggestion? The only qualifying suggestion that might redirect to the Ottoman influence without the Italian twist is that the Kabyles, while not as I understand ever taken over by the Ottomans, had powerful influence from them. The flyssa is held in Kabyle tradition as the key element in a young mans rite of passage, and he must obtain his sword as well as his 'fortune' in order to marry (as I was once told). While the traditional flyssa of course is the standard however the yataghan is admired even beyond these, and I wonder if that affinity for these Ottoman weapons as influential symbols of status may have led to the earlier and distinctly Berber form which has become known as the flyssa. All best regards, Jim

15th June 2012, 06:12 AM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Jim, Thanks for coming in on this I will look for the Boccia & Coelho reference you mention. Are you thinking of a sword like the storta? I will be back home in a few days and will upload higher resolution pics of this flyssa and others and maybe make an inventory of all the markings on the documented examples. I will also check them with those reported by Lacoste-Dujardin. The flyssa's misteries have not been exhausted yet All the best! Emanuel

15th June 2012, 06:32 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Emanuel, Actually I think the Boccia & Coelho example is more like a dagger, I'll see if I can possibly get a scan of the illustration. It is a monster book and not sure my scanner will allow, maybe a photo will do. Looking forward to the pics and inventory of the markings in LaCoste....absolutely the mysteries of the flyssa remain elusive, but they cannot be forever with you on the trail!! Its good to have you back here on the adventure! All the best, Jim