Over cleaning the keris blade?

Green · 1st July 2015, 07:57 PM

I've noticed that some keris blades on sales from western collection are over cleaned in my view. They looked shiny and feel very smooth like modern knife blades and often oiled. They looked nothing like when they were first forged which is rather dull in color and rough and grainy like fine sandpaper to the touch.

You'll never see this kind of over cleaning in any keris on sales in this region and at least to some keris collectors in my country (Malaysia) that I've met this over cleaning (?) is considered as destroying the blade and value.

I would appreciate your views on this (over cleaning).

David · 1st July 2015, 09:56 PM

The surface of a keris is a somewhat region custom Green. Bali keris traditionally have a smooth polished finish.This tradition was actually inherited from early Javanese keris and if you look at really old Jawa pieces collected early on (1600s or so) that reside in some European museums you will find a similar smooth surface to many of them.
I have also found many Malay keris with fairly smooth surfaces since they do not usually get regular warangan treatments.
I am not sure what you mean about the finish of a keris when new. AFAIK a new keris will have a fairy smooth finish and it roughens over time through warangan treatments. Many new keris (especially Javanese style) are treated this way to create a rough finish because that is the socially acceptable look.
I have not come across too many keris where the finish has been made smooth when it is supposed to be rough. Perhaps you could post some examples. The accepted way to clean a keris with acidy liquids such as fruit juices or coconut water only tends to roughen the surface more, not smooth it.
Again, posting examples from you might help us understand what you are looking at better.

Sajen · 1st July 2015, 10:22 PM

I've handled once a keris from empu Djeno Harumbrodjo which has had also a polished surface. I think that the rough surface we know from old/antique Java keris blades coming only from the traditional warangan. I am sure that Alan will be able to tell us more in this matter.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 2nd July 2015, 12:32 AM

Not really Detlef, I think David has said all that needs to be said, anything I could add would only reinforce David's comments.

I will add one comment. I have several Bugis/Peninsula keris, old ones that came into Australia around 1920, not in new condition, and with the usual signs of age in the hilt and wrongko. However, the blades of these keris, although displaying topographic relief, are smooth and polished, as if they have been etched to give the topographic relief, then polished, and then stained. Just maybe this might have been the preferred finish in at least one place about 100 years ago.

Green · 2nd July 2015, 03:21 AM

Thanks all for the explanation. Here is an example of what I would call an over cleaned blade.It looked shiny , smooth to the touch and the color is silvery. compared to what some would view as 'normal' surface which is duller original color and the surface feels somewhat like v fine sandpaper (the second pic).

A. G. Maisey · 2nd July 2015, 03:35 AM

Two keris of very different age and very different material:- we cannot compare apples to rambutan.

Jean · 3rd July 2015, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

Thanks all for the explanation. Here is an example of what I would call an over cleaned blade.It looked shiny , smooth to the touch and the color is silvery. compared to what some would view as 'normal' surface which is duller original color and the surface feels somewhat like v fine sandpaper (the second pic).

Hello Green,
IMO and by Indonesian standards your blade is not over cleaned but poorly maintained, it has several rust spots and the pamor pattern looks indistinct probably because the blade surface was polished with fine abrasive materials.
Personally I would have it professionally cleaned and stained, see an example of a blade before and after treating it with warangan.
Regards

Roland_M · 2nd July 2015, 09:19 AM

As far as i know many Keris blades were often ritually washed with water. This could be one reason for the rough surface of some blades. Just a thought without evidence.

I have one old, simple Keris, never repolished, with a very smooth surface, which was obviously not often ritually washed.

1st July 2015, 07:57 PM	#1
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	Over cleaning the keris blade? I've noticed that some keris blades on sales from western collection are over cleaned in my view. They looked shiny and feel very smooth like modern knife blades and often oiled. They looked nothing like when they were first forged which is rather dull in color and rough and grainy like fine sandpaper to the touch. You'll never see this kind of over cleaning in any keris on sales in this region and at least to some keris collectors in my country (Malaysia) that I've met this over cleaning (?) is considered as destroying the blade and value. I would appreciate your views on this (over cleaning).

2nd July 2015, 03:21 AM	#5
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	Thanks all for the explanation. Here is an example of what I would call an over cleaned blade.It looked shiny , smooth to the touch and the color is silvery. compared to what some would view as 'normal' surface which is duller original color and the surface feels somewhat like v fine sandpaper (the second pic). Attached Images

1st July 2015, 09:56 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	The surface of a keris is a somewhat region custom Green. Bali keris traditionally have a smooth polished finish.This tradition was actually inherited from early Javanese keris and if you look at really old Jawa pieces collected early on (1600s or so) that reside in some European museums you will find a similar smooth surface to many of them. I have also found many Malay keris with fairly smooth surfaces since they do not usually get regular warangan treatments. I am not sure what you mean about the finish of a keris when new. AFAIK a new keris will have a fairy smooth finish and it roughens over time through warangan treatments. Many new keris (especially Javanese style) are treated this way to create a rough finish because that is the socially acceptable look. I have not come across too many keris where the finish has been made smooth when it is supposed to be rough. Perhaps you could post some examples. The accepted way to clean a keris with acidy liquids such as fruit juices or coconut water only tends to roughen the surface more, not smooth it. Again, posting examples from you might help us understand what you are looking at better.

1st July 2015, 10:22 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,770	I've handled once a keris from empu Djeno Harumbrodjo which has had also a polished surface. I think that the rough surface we know from old/antique Java keris blades coming only from the traditional warangan. I am sure that Alan will be able to tell us more in this matter. Regards, Detlef

2nd July 2015, 12:32 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Not really Detlef, I think David has said all that needs to be said, anything I could add would only reinforce David's comments. I will add one comment. I have several Bugis/Peninsula keris, old ones that came into Australia around 1920, not in new condition, and with the usual signs of age in the hilt and wrongko. However, the blades of these keris, although displaying topographic relief, are smooth and polished, as if they have been etched to give the topographic relief, then polished, and then stained. Just maybe this might have been the preferred finish in at least one place about 100 years ago.

2nd July 2015, 03:35 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Two keris of very different age and very different material:- we cannot compare apples to rambutan.

2nd July 2015, 09:19 AM	#8
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	As far as i know many Keris blades were often ritually washed with water. This could be one reason for the rough surface of some blades. Just a thought without evidence. I have one old, simple Keris, never repolished, with a very smooth surface, which was obviously not often ritually washed.