plese help identify this pamor

vinny · 22nd April 2005, 03:11 PM

Hi

I am interested in buying this Keris (please see attached). Please let me know if I am breaking forum policy with my post.

I am unsure of the pamor, I think could be Beras Wutah. What does anyone else think.

Regards
Vinny

Mark · 22nd April 2005, 03:26 PM

Vinny,

I do not see a problem with your post. You do not disclose the seller, or the nature of the transaction, and you don't even show the whole piece, so it is unlike to lead easily to finding that out. Plus, you are not asking for any sort of value estimate or authenticity, just information on the style of the piece.

Now, if someone jumps in with information about seller, source, whatever, their post is going to get zapped (be warned ...)

Mark

vinny · 22nd April 2005, 03:42 PM

Mark

Many thanks.

Hopefully the only responses will be to help identify the pamor type.

Thanks in advance if anyone can help.

Best regards

Vinny

Alam Shah · 22nd April 2005, 03:43 PM

Yes, it is Wos Wutah. But the workmanship is rather crude...imo only.

vinny · 22nd April 2005, 03:52 PM

Alam Shah

Terimah kasih.

Regards
Vinny

Rick · 22nd April 2005, 03:53 PM

The pamor does run off the edge a bit . Does the seller claim this piece is over 100 yrs old ? It looks a little ragged .

vinny · 22nd April 2005, 04:11 PM

Rick

I don't want to disclose too much so this piece can remain anonymous.

It is represented as > 100 years. It looks better on other pictures.

I am no expert, but I thought it looks better crafted and in better shape than some Keris I have inspected in an antique shop. They did not seem authentic, and looked artifically aged, were totally dry, pamor dropped off and had no smell or any other evidence of maintenance, and mostly in poor shape, with something broken, or clothes not fitting correctly. The worst one looked like it had been buried on the ground and rusted away, the blade was only 5 inches long and so thin, you could flex it with your fingers!

I like this one because the pamor is so clearly visible with a nice contrast without being really dark. But I am new to this sort of thing, so I don't really know anything.

Regards
Vinny

Rick · 22nd April 2005, 04:18 PM

Have you read this past thread ?
It's from the old forum archives .
It's one of the best threads on keris to come out of this forum :

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000402.html

Kiai Carita · 26th April 2005, 03:50 PM

Vinny's keris seems to be a tilam upih or a brojol (altough most brojol have fatter blades) with a beras wutah or maybe pulo tirto pamor. Both pamor have similar esoteric value. As keris are never intended by Javanese to be used as weapons to kill many daour of keris have very thin blades. Having a thin blade does not mean that it is a tourist keris. However there are many-many tourist keris made to look like old ones by washing in acid. To ascertain whether this had been done or not one would have to actually handle the keris and inspect the consitence of the ricikan details and the type of metals used during a particular tangguh.

Salam keris
Kiai carita

rahman · 27th April 2005, 11:06 AM

Vinny - get a magnifying glass or lupe and check the pamur material for any crystalline formations.

I believe what you have is what the Malays call 'pamur miang' (by DAHenkel). It's a form of chatoyance that creates a 3D effect on the pamur layers when viewed at different angles against the light.

It's quite rare, I think.

vinny · 27th April 2005, 01:37 PM

Pak Rahman and Kiai Carita.

Thanks for your valuable info.
I will examine the Keris when it arrives.
I don't know, I just had a good feeling about it when I looked at pictures, so I decided to buy. When it arrives, I will take some close shots and post them.

I have seen plenty of tourist Keris, and they and they are very easy to identify (my brother has a small collection of them!). You can see how they must have been etched using a wax resist method, and exposed to moisture to promote corrosion.

The vendor says this blade has been washed in the last decase, so the pamor should be in good shape. I have some Keris oil containing lime juice, lotus flower essence and a small amount of warangan (it only very slightly darkens iron and seems to stop darkening after a couple of hours), should I use this to refresh the pamor, or just oil with normal keris oil if it is dry?

Regards
Vinny

Kiai Carita · 28th April 2005, 11:36 AM

The vendor says this blade has been washed in the last decase, so the pamor should be in good shape. I have some Keris oil containing lime juice, lotus flower essence and a small amount of warangan (it only very slightly darkens iron and seems to stop darkening after a couple of hours), should I use this to refresh the pamor, or just oil with normal keris oil if it is dry?

Regards
Vinny[/QUOTE]

Many modern Javanese now do not put warangan on their blades unless it is for an exhibition. Then they would get their blades given the warangan treatment by a professional. Warangan is poison and makes the blade dangerous as even a slight cut can do alot of damage and also the citric acid used eats away the metal of the blade. Personally I think that gun oil or sewing machine oil or bicycle chain oil mixed with sandalwood essential oil or some other royal aroma to taste is better than warangan although the pamor does not shine and the iron does not go black.

vinny · 28th April 2005, 11:46 AM

Kiai Carita

I will adhere to your advice and use some oil I have that is scented with sandalwood and flowers, and no warangan. I was told that the oil that does contains the warangan, has such a tiny amount it will not harm me, but to be safe, I will avoid using it.

Many thanks for your advice.

Regards
Vinny

22nd April 2005, 03:11 PM	#1
vinny Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: England Posts: 31	please help identify this pamor Hi I am interested in buying this Keris (please see attached). Please let me know if I am breaking forum policy with my post. I am unsure of the pamor, I think could be Beras Wutah. What does anyone else think. Regards Vinny Attached Images Last edited by vinny; 22nd April 2005 at 04:12 PM.

22nd April 2005, 04:18 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Vinny Have you read this past thread ? It's from the old forum archives . It's one of the best threads on keris to come out of this forum : http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000402.html

26th April 2005, 03:50 PM	#9
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	Vinny's Pamor Vinny's keris seems to be a tilam upih or a brojol (altough most brojol have fatter blades) with a beras wutah or maybe pulo tirto pamor. Both pamor have similar esoteric value. As keris are never intended by Javanese to be used as weapons to kill many daour of keris have very thin blades. Having a thin blade does not mean that it is a tourist keris. However there are many-many tourist keris made to look like old ones by washing in acid. To ascertain whether this had been done or not one would have to actually handle the keris and inspect the consitence of the ricikan details and the type of metals used during a particular tangguh. Salam keris Kiai carita

22nd April 2005, 03:26 PM	#2
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Vinny, I do not see a problem with your post. You do not disclose the seller, or the nature of the transaction, and you don't even show the whole piece, so it is unlike to lead easily to finding that out. Plus, you are not asking for any sort of value estimate or authenticity, just information on the style of the piece. Now, if someone jumps in with information about seller, source, whatever, their post is going to get zapped (be warned ...) Mark

22nd April 2005, 03:42 PM	#3
vinny Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: England Posts: 31	Mark Many thanks. Hopefully the only responses will be to help identify the pamor type. Thanks in advance if anyone can help. Best regards Vinny

22nd April 2005, 03:43 PM	#4
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Yes, it is Wos Wutah. But the workmanship is rather crude...imo only.

22nd April 2005, 03:52 PM	#5
vinny Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: England Posts: 31	Alam Shah Terimah kasih. Regards Vinny

22nd April 2005, 03:53 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	The pamor does run off the edge a bit . Does the seller claim this piece is over 100 yrs old ? It looks a little ragged .

22nd April 2005, 04:11 PM	#7
vinny Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: England Posts: 31	Rick I don't want to disclose too much so this piece can remain anonymous. It is represented as > 100 years. It looks better on other pictures. I am no expert, but I thought it looks better crafted and in better shape than some Keris I have inspected in an antique shop. They did not seem authentic, and looked artifically aged, were totally dry, pamor dropped off and had no smell or any other evidence of maintenance, and mostly in poor shape, with something broken, or clothes not fitting correctly. The worst one looked like it had been buried on the ground and rusted away, the blade was only 5 inches long and so thin, you could flex it with your fingers! I like this one because the pamor is so clearly visible with a nice contrast without being really dark. But I am new to this sort of thing, so I don't really know anything. Regards Vinny

27th April 2005, 11:06 AM	#10
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	Vinny - get a magnifying glass or lupe and check the pamur material for any crystalline formations. I believe what you have is what the Malays call 'pamur miang' (by DAHenkel). It's a form of chatoyance that creates a 3D effect on the pamur layers when viewed at different angles against the light. It's quite rare, I think.

27th April 2005, 01:37 PM	#11
vinny Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: England Posts: 31	Pak Rahman and Kiai Carita. Thanks for your valuable info. I will examine the Keris when it arrives. I don't know, I just had a good feeling about it when I looked at pictures, so I decided to buy. When it arrives, I will take some close shots and post them. I have seen plenty of tourist Keris, and they and they are very easy to identify (my brother has a small collection of them!). You can see how they must have been etched using a wax resist method, and exposed to moisture to promote corrosion. The vendor says this blade has been washed in the last decase, so the pamor should be in good shape. I have some Keris oil containing lime juice, lotus flower essence and a small amount of warangan (it only very slightly darkens iron and seems to stop darkening after a couple of hours), should I use this to refresh the pamor, or just oil with normal keris oil if it is dry? Regards Vinny

28th April 2005, 11:36 AM	#12
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	The vendor says this blade has been washed in the last decase, so the pamor should be in good shape. I have some Keris oil containing lime juice, lotus flower essence and a small amount of warangan (it only very slightly darkens iron and seems to stop darkening after a couple of hours), should I use this to refresh the pamor, or just oil with normal keris oil if it is dry? Regards Vinny[/QUOTE] Many modern Javanese now do not put warangan on their blades unless it is for an exhibition. Then they would get their blades given the warangan treatment by a professional. Warangan is poison and makes the blade dangerous as even a slight cut can do alot of damage and also the citric acid used eats away the metal of the blade. Personally I think that gun oil or sewing machine oil or bicycle chain oil mixed with sandalwood essential oil or some other royal aroma to taste is better than warangan although the pamor does not shine and the iron does not go black.

28th April 2005, 11:46 AM	#13
vinny Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: England Posts: 31	Kiai Carita I will adhere to your advice and use some oil I have that is scented with sandalwood and flowers, and no warangan. I was told that the oil that does contains the warangan, has such a tiny amount it will not harm me, but to be safe, I will avoid using it. Many thanks for your advice. Regards Vinny