Plz help with ID of 2 Daggers

Justin · 12th May 2005, 08:59 PM

Im not quite sure what I have here.The first one, Im thinking ,is from Turkey.
11in long oa,and the blade is almost 7in long.Pretty much cylindrical horn grip,brass ferrule,bolster and pommel cap.

The second I have seen a few of on ebay from time to time,from small knives to short sword sized,this one is 13 1/2 in oa,blade is 9in.Very thin forged blade with engraving and possibly writing on one side.Pommel and guard are horn the handle scales are bone or ivory.Im guessing North Africa on this one.

tom hyle · 13th May 2005, 01:30 AM

I see what you mean about the second one looking N African/Berbese, especially the marks on the blade, but has the handle lost substantial portions to breakage? Was it not once fairly extravagantly "I" shaped? With the tips all curling inward like that it reminds me of some Indian hilts. Then again, there are the khoumiys with the big curvy pommels, too.......

Justin · 13th May 2005, 01:35 AM

Not broken at all except that on bone scale is cracked, but nothing is missing,my first thought was actually that with an I shaped hilt it would be very much like a 'Zanzibar Sword'.

For comparison:

ariel · 13th May 2005, 02:27 AM

The first one is a typical Turkish dagger from the Trabzon area, a close relation of my avatar, the Laz Bicaq.
These daggers are characterized by a complex system of fullers and I can clearly see it on your pic.
In Timonium, I saw one with a handle wrapped with thin reddish and green leather thongs, exactly in the manner of the classic Black Sea Yataghan's scabbard, and with leather "ears" over the bolster, also just like BSY (Laz Bicaq). I almost wanted to buy it just as the "missing link", but the price was exorbitant.

tom hyle · 13th May 2005, 10:56 AM

The Zanzibar hilt is quite differently shaped, the ends not curving inward to grip the hand; the closest E African/etc. equivalent to such hilt would probably be the X handle Hadendoa daggers. Less relevant, as it is not broken off. The double-line zigzag on the blade is something I see on a lot of Berbese work. The multipart pinned hilt construction reminds me of choora though. I think it's a fairly modern piece, and possibly of multicultural influence.
I don't know that I'd call the other one a dagger. Dagger-knife, maybe; it has features meant for violence, but overall was probably carried for every day cutting tasks. Seems rather on the kard side of things. The recurved blade seems regionally appropriate. Nice looking blade.

Ian · 13th May 2005, 12:11 PM

Hi Justin:

Your second knife with the bone/ivory handle is from Turkey, probably early 20th C. There is an identical example shown in Levine, p.481.*

Here is Levine's description: "About 15 inches overall. Curved blade with arabic inscription. Hook-like pommel and guard of ebony. Brass sheath. 19th-20th centuries."

I know Mike D. has a copy of Levine with details of this knife.

Ian.

----------------------------------------

* Bernard Levine. Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values. Fifth edition. Krause Publication, Iola, WI. 2001

12th May 2005, 08:59 PM	#1
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Plz help with ID of 2 Daggers Im not quite sure what I have here.The first one, Im thinking ,is from Turkey. 11in long oa,and the blade is almost 7in long.Pretty much cylindrical horn grip,brass ferrule,bolster and pommel cap. The second I have seen a few of on ebay from time to time,from small knives to short sword sized,this one is 13 1/2 in oa,blade is 9in.Very thin forged blade with engraving and possibly writing on one side.Pommel and guard are horn the handle scales are bone or ivory.Im guessing North Africa on this one. Attached Images

13th May 2005, 01:35 AM	#3
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Not broken at all except that on bone scale is cracked, but nothing is missing,my first thought was actually that with an I shaped hilt it would be very much like a 'Zanzibar Sword'. For comparison: Attached Images

13th May 2005, 01:30 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I see what you mean about the second one looking N African/Berbese, especially the marks on the blade, but has the handle lost substantial portions to breakage? Was it not once fairly extravagantly "I" shaped? With the tips all curling inward like that it reminds me of some Indian hilts. Then again, there are the khoumiys with the big curvy pommels, too.......

13th May 2005, 02:27 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The first one is a typical Turkish dagger from the Trabzon area, a close relation of my avatar, the Laz Bicaq. These daggers are characterized by a complex system of fullers and I can clearly see it on your pic. In Timonium, I saw one with a handle wrapped with thin reddish and green leather thongs, exactly in the manner of the classic Black Sea Yataghan's scabbard, and with leather "ears" over the bolster, also just like BSY (Laz Bicaq). I almost wanted to buy it just as the "missing link", but the price was exorbitant.

13th May 2005, 10:56 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The Zanzibar hilt is quite differently shaped, the ends not curving inward to grip the hand; the closest E African/etc. equivalent to such hilt would probably be the X handle Hadendoa daggers. Less relevant, as it is not broken off. The double-line zigzag on the blade is something I see on a lot of Berbese work. The multipart pinned hilt construction reminds me of choora though. I think it's a fairly modern piece, and possibly of multicultural influence. I don't know that I'd call the other one a dagger. Dagger-knife, maybe; it has features meant for violence, but overall was probably carried for every day cutting tasks. Seems rather on the kard side of things. The recurved blade seems regionally appropriate. Nice looking blade.

13th May 2005, 12:11 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,167	Hi Justin: Your second knife with the bone/ivory handle is from Turkey, probably early 20th C. There is an identical example shown in Levine, p.481.* Here is Levine's description: "About 15 inches overall. Curved blade with arabic inscription. Hook-like pommel and guard of ebony. Brass sheath. 19th-20th centuries." I know Mike D. has a copy of Levine with details of this knife. Ian. ---------------------------------------- * Bernard Levine. Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values. Fifth edition. Krause Publication, Iola, WI. 2001