Comparison of Decorations on Arms and non-Arms Objects

ALEX · 25th September 2009, 08:17 PM

Here are two examples of similar decorations on arms and non-arms objects. The first is 17th Century Safavid bowl with inscriptions in thuluth: a call to God to bless the Fourteen Innocents. Next to it - the 19th Century Indian blade with the same script/ inscription. On the right - the Qajar steel dagger and ewer showing very similar floral decorations. I am sure there are more references to differend decorations and similarities between different objects. Would be interesting to see more of them.

Jens Nordlunde · 26th September 2009, 04:00 PM

Alex,

I find this thread very fascinating, but to be of real value it should be made a sticker or it will disappear within a short wile.

I hope the moderators agree with me, as information’s of this kind will be dropping in now and again, and not be written within the next week or so.

Few collectors ‘attack’ their research like you do, which, to my opinion, is the only way to do it, as other objects than weapons often are better documented and to be found in a greater number.

I don’t have many objects from India other than my collection, but I do have a number of books showing Indian art other than weapons. I will see what I can dig up, and hope the moderators will help.

Jens

Atlantia · 26th September 2009, 07:20 PM

This is a great thread, I hope we will see plenty of replies here as this is indeed a big area for discussion.
I'll be taking some pictures later.

EDIT: +1 vote for sticky

A great opportunity for discussion of the art and decoration of so many weapons!! Japanese, Indian, Arabic......

Jim McDougall · 27th September 2009, 01:50 AM

As Jens has very astutely observed, the true study of the history of weapons is not just in the books written on weapons themselves, but particularly in arts, crafts and all forms of material culture of the cultures who used them.

This is the absolute beauty of the study of historical weapons, in that they are often icons reflecting important elements and changes in the cultures overall, as well as beliefs and traditions in the decorative motifs.

Thank you Alex for posting this excellent topic, and moving to permanent status is indeed a great idea.

Atlantia · 27th September 2009, 11:42 AM

well gentlemen. I thought I'd make my first submission to this thread a start of the rather large area of Indian foliate designs.
The 'Foliage and flowers' pattern is popular throughout India and features on a huge variety of weapons and metalwork.
I thought I'd start with one of the most recognisable versions of it, the Kashmiri rosette.
Here is a composite picture of three non-weapon items, the top is a silver bowl, the pattern is (IMHO) classic form and the bowl itself is also in the shape of a rosette when you look down on it. The second is a large 2' copper charger depicting the love story of Krishna and Radha, the entire background is the rosette pattern again, but a little cruder than the silver bowl. Thirdly, my beloved copper Hamsa bird, which has a 'skin' tattooed with a more stylised version of the pattern, but I do still think its from Kashmir (Unless you know better?)
Hopefully if we all contribute, this thread will be a great 'resource' for helping identify weapons specific regions from their decorative styles.

Jens Nordlunde · 27th September 2009, 12:44 PM

On the first picture you see a huqqa (Zebrowski, 1997, p. 65) and a hilt. On top of the huqqa the decoration is the same as on top of the grip. These decorations are (Stronge, 1985, pp. 56-57) palmetto leaves.

About the huqqa Zebrowski writes, that he was tempted to assign the huqqa to the 17th century, but due to the female figures wearing dresses and strike the pose of Mewar portraits of the early 18th century, the huqqa can’t be 17th century. This means that the decoration with palmetto leaves goes further back that the early 18th century. So all we have on the hilt so far is the palmetto decoration and a possible place of origin – but no proof.

Further research will show if, when and where this decoration was used. A good place to start could be to dig into which clan or sub clan the rulers from Mewar came, and look rulers of the same clan/sub clan in the other states of Rajasthan.

On the other picture is a salver shown with the same kind of decoration; here the place of origin is given to Deccan(?)

Mark Zebrowski: Gold, silver & Bronze from Mughal India. 1997.

Susan Stronge: Bidri Ware. V&A Museum, 1985.

ALEX · 27th September 2009, 10:20 PM

A few examples of Turkish silver fittings and similar technique on other silver objects. The niello on a last scabbard matches the Van niello work on a cigarette case.

25th September 2009, 08:17 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Comparison of Decorations on Arms and non-Arms Objects Here are two examples of similar decorations on arms and non-arms objects. The first is 17th Century Safavid bowl with inscriptions in thuluth: a call to God to bless the Fourteen Innocents. Next to it - the 19th Century Indian blade with the same script/ inscription. On the right - the Qajar steel dagger and ewer showing very similar floral decorations. I am sure there are more references to differend decorations and similarities between different objects. Would be interesting to see more of them. Attached Images

26th September 2009, 07:20 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	This is a great thread, I hope we will see plenty of replies here as this is indeed a big area for discussion. I'll be taking some pictures later. EDIT: +1 vote for sticky A great opportunity for discussion of the art and decoration of so many weapons!! Japanese, Indian, Arabic...... Last edited by Atlantia; 27th September 2009 at 11:52 AM.

27th September 2009, 11:42 AM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	well gentlemen. I thought I'd make my first submission to this thread a start of the rather large area of Indian foliate designs. The 'Foliage and flowers' pattern is popular throughout India and features on a huge variety of weapons and metalwork. I thought I'd start with one of the most recognisable versions of it, the Kashmiri rosette. Here is a composite picture of three non-weapon items, the top is a silver bowl, the pattern is (IMHO) classic form and the bowl itself is also in the shape of a rosette when you look down on it. The second is a large 2' copper charger depicting the love story of Krishna and Radha, the entire background is the rosette pattern again, but a little cruder than the silver bowl. Thirdly, my beloved copper Hamsa bird, which has a 'skin' tattooed with a more stylised version of the pattern, but I do still think its from Kashmir (Unless you know better?) Hopefully if we all contribute, this thread will be a great 'resource' for helping identify weapons specific regions from their decorative styles. Last edited by Atlantia; 27th September 2009 at 12:43 PM.

27th September 2009, 12:44 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	On the first picture you see a huqqa (Zebrowski, 1997, p. 65) and a hilt. On top of the huqqa the decoration is the same as on top of the grip. These decorations are (Stronge, 1985, pp. 56-57) palmetto leaves. About the huqqa Zebrowski writes, that he was tempted to assign the huqqa to the 17th century, but due to the female figures wearing dresses and strike the pose of Mewar portraits of the early 18th century, the huqqa can’t be 17th century. This means that the decoration with palmetto leaves goes further back that the early 18th century. So all we have on the hilt so far is the palmetto decoration and a possible place of origin – but no proof. Further research will show if, when and where this decoration was used. A good place to start could be to dig into which clan or sub clan the rulers from Mewar came, and look rulers of the same clan/sub clan in the other states of Rajasthan. On the other picture is a salver shown with the same kind of decoration; here the place of origin is given to Deccan(?) Mark Zebrowski: Gold, silver & Bronze from Mughal India. 1997. Susan Stronge: Bidri Ware. V&A Museum, 1985. Attached Images

27th September 2009, 10:20 PM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	A few examples of Turkish silver fittings and similar technique on other silver objects. The niello on a last scabbard matches the Van niello work on a cigarette case. Attached Images

26th September 2009, 04:00 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Alex, I find this thread very fascinating, but to be of real value it should be made a sticker or it will disappear within a short wile. I hope the moderators agree with me, as information’s of this kind will be dropping in now and again, and not be written within the next week or so. Few collectors ‘attack’ their research like you do, which, to my opinion, is the only way to do it, as other objects than weapons often are better documented and to be found in a greater number. I don’t have many objects from India other than my collection, but I do have a number of books showing Indian art other than weapons. I will see what I can dig up, and hope the moderators will help. Jens

27th September 2009, 01:50 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	As Jens has very astutely observed, the true study of the history of weapons is not just in the books written on weapons themselves, but particularly in arts, crafts and all forms of material culture of the cultures who used them. This is the absolute beauty of the study of historical weapons, in that they are often icons reflecting important elements and changes in the cultures overall, as well as beliefs and traditions in the decorative motifs. Thank you Alex for posting this excellent topic, and moving to permanent status is indeed a great idea.