New Sword

Robert · 29th August 2005, 12:46 AM

Greetings,
I just picked this up off of e-bay. I don't have any information on it yet, just this bad picture. The seller said that he thinks it is Iban. I have no idea. As usual I'm hoping someone can tell me more about it. The seller had it packed for shipping at time of sale but said the blade is over two foot long. Thanks.

Robert

Robert · 29th August 2005, 05:43 PM

75 views and not one opinion as to its possible origin or who made it?

Tim Simmons · 29th August 2005, 05:51 PM

Hello Robert,
It looks to me as if it is from the Philippines, I do not now much about these things , the skull thing does not seem right to me, what is it made of? Tim

Robert · 29th August 2005, 05:58 PM

Hi Tim,
It is a monkey skull. The seller said that this was brought back by his grandfather after WWII.

Robert

fearn · 29th August 2005, 07:59 PM

I'll admit I'm surprised too. Why aren't the PI people swarming on this one? Isn't it some sort of talibon?

F

Freddy · 29th August 2005, 09:28 PM

This is the one I used to have :

The origin was also the Philippines. There was a thread quite some time ago, perhaps someone could help in finding it ?

Robert · 29th August 2005, 10:04 PM

Freddy,
What did the blade on the one you had look like, did it look like the one on mine or was it of a different style alltogether?

Robert

Rick · 29th August 2005, 10:08 PM

Robert , when you get it better pictures and measurements will tell us more .
The blade profile seems not quite right for a garab or talibon ; too much belly too far forward .

http://www.vikingsword.com/rila/krieger.html

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/ifugao/index.html

zelbone · 2nd September 2005, 04:55 AM

Hey Robert!
How far is Centerville,KS from KC,MO? I wouldn't mind actually seeing that piece in person. Post close-ups of the hilt and the scabbard when you get it as well as the ricasso. Federico may be correct on the Panay origin, but I might even go further and say it's from Capiz or Aklan province on Panay island. If that's the case, the monkey skull would be consistent with the area. However, Ian does make a point that the blade looks more like a parang nabur than a typical sanduko blade. Anyways, post better pics when it comes in and most likely someone here can probably better identify it.

Zel

Robert · 2nd September 2005, 05:21 AM

Zel,
It's about 75 miles or so from KC, MO to where I live. I will be posting a lot more pictures as soon as the sword gets here. If you still want to see it in person we can arange something later this fall after I get done with my next surgery.

Robert

Federico · 2nd September 2005, 08:08 AM

Come on guys, skip meeting in Kansas City, and fly out to Minnesota and we can have ourselves a good ol time

Ill buy the first few rounds of San Miguel

zelbone · 2nd September 2005, 10:28 PM

Hey Federico!
Did you say San Miguels? Very tempting

!!! Make it Red Horses and I'll be there tomorrow!

Robert, sounds good! Post pics. If you're ever in KC just email me and we can arrange a meeting. I'll even let LabanTayo know so that he can bring some of his stuff over.

...now what about those San Miguels

Robert · 2nd September 2005, 11:09 PM

Zel,
Sounds great. Let me heal up a bit and I'll e-mail you and we can get thing arranged. Must be somewhere up there we can get a few Red Horses.

Federico,
I'd love to come to Minnesota but I'm afraid I'll have to pass, at least for now anyway.

I hope to be able to meet a few of the forum members some day.

Robert

Robert · 6th September 2005, 09:05 PM

OK everybody, here are more pictures and info. The pictures are still not the best quality because of it being a very sunny day but I think they will give everyone a good idea of what it looks like.

Blade length from hilt to tip is 18-3/4 inches.
Blade width at wides point is 1-5/8 inches.
Blade width at the narrowest 5/8 inch.
Blade at thickest point is 5/16 inch.

The blade is bevel sharpened on one side only like a talibon. The skull looks to me like it has been part of the scabbard dress for quite a long time, if not from the beginning.

Tim Simmons · 6th September 2005, 09:13 PM

I rather like that. I am very keen on weapons made in the back woods so to speak. I just think some of the things made away from town with limited tools show some of the cleanest of line and thought in construction. Tim

Andrew · 7th September 2005, 05:31 AM

Interesting sword, Robert. I like it very much. I've got little to add to the prior observations.

I agree with Ian that the blade profile strongly resembles that of a parang nabur. The handle is similar to some I've seen (parang nabur without knuckle-guards are, apparantly, rare but not unknown), but the angle of mounting is unusual for that sword, and may be partly responsible for a vague talibon appearance.

The scabbard is not very helpful, nor is the monkey skull. The scabbard construction of two pieces of wood bound together by plaited rattan appears across SEA, as do monkeys (anyone feel confident enough to take a stab at identifying the species?

).

I'm going to default to a generic "golok" for this one for the time being.

zelbone · 8th September 2005, 08:25 AM

Interesting sword....

It has all the characteristics of a Visayan sword, but where in the Visayas is a good question. If you look at the sword as a whole (blade, hilt, and scabbard) it appears to be a Visayan sword. However, if you analyze each part, then the sword looks like it was pieced together from different regions in the Visayas. Confused? I'll explain...

First, let's look at the blade. Andrew is correct that the blade does have a vague talibon appearance. In fact calling this a talibon or talibong would be acceptable since the term is a generic name for a fighting sword throughout the Visayas. The narrow ricasso is typical, while the blade widens towards the point. Also, the offset angle of the tang at almost 45 degrees is typical. This puts most of the weight of the blade towards the end making this a formidable chopper. The single bevel is also typical for a Visayan blade. Blades with these features are usually found on Leyte, Samar, and Cebu while the blades from Panay and Negros usually have wider ricassos with very little to no offset of the tang....there are those rare exceptions. But by looking at just the blade and the striking resemblence to the typical "talibon" blade, it appears that the blade is most likely from Leyte or Samar...maybe even Cebu.

Next, let's look at the hilt. The hilt is a rather plain figural hilt. It isn't the typical Ilongo deity form or the Aklanon/Capiz deity form found on a Sanduko. Actually, figural hilts are quite common all over the Visayas....from Panay to Bohol. Figural hilts can be found on talibons, binangons, sundangs, sandukos, etc. The hilt really isn't much of a good indicator to the origin of this piece. However, the lack of a metal ferrule eliminates it from being an Ilongo piece (Eastern Panay/Negros Occidental.) The thin ratan band is mainly decorative which again is more consitent with pieces from Leyte, Samar, and Cebu. However, you will see this on a few sandukos and talibongs from Aklan,Capiz, and Antique IF there isn't a guard present.

Finally, lets look at the scabbard. This is the part of the sword that is really confusing. First off, it lacks a leather throat piece typical of Ilongo scabbards. Also, the scabbard isn't completely straight and squared off like most Ilongo scabbards. This scabbard, however, shows more Aklanon/Capiz traits with the curled-up toe. This can be seen on the Sanduko scabbards where the toe turns-up to almost a 90 degree angle. Even recently made talibong scabbards from Aklan have this feature. Scabbards from the Eastern Visayas (Leyte, Samar, Cebu) usually have scabbards that taper with the form of the blade and the toes of the scabbard usually turn up, but not that drastically as those from Aklan and Capiz. Looking at the just the shape of the scabbard, I would assume it was from Aklan or Capiz in Panay. But to add to the confusion even more is the way the hanger is set up. On this scabbard, it looks as if the top face of the scabbard was drilled through so a rope belt can be lashed on. This is usually seen on swords from Luzon and not the Visayas. In the Visayas a hanger block is usually carved out very prominantly and is drilled through. In Aklan and Capiz, the hanger block is slotted and not drilled through. As for the monkey skull, it looks more like a later add on. It actually looks like something you would see on an Igorot piece or other highland Luzon tribe. However, my sister did see a few bolos in Aklan that sported monkey skulls on their scabbards. I know she isn't lying since she wouldn't pick me up one since she's a member of PETA and is such a tree-hugging hippy that buying me a bolo with a monkey skull on the scabbard would be immoral to her. Well I didn't see any when I was there, but I did pick up a talibon with beetle wings on the scabbard. So where is the scabbard from? Good question, but it looks Aklanon to me.

So where in the Visayas is this sword from? We can rule out Negros Occidental and Iloilo province on Panay which leaves us with a lot of territory in the Visayas. My guess would be Leyte based on just the blade, but I would guess Aklan or Capiz by just the scabbard. The sword is definately old and unique. Finally, I'll throw out another possibility...Mindanao. Not from the native Lumad tribes, but from the number of Visayan immigrants that settled there. This sword could be from around Ozamis, Cagayan de Oro, Iligan, Butuan, etc. There are a number of Visayans living in Mindanao that may explain those oddball swords with both Lumad and Visayan features...something else to think about.

Bill · 8th September 2005, 12:49 PM

here is a shot in the dark-Siquijor, located to the south of Negros, Cebu, & Bohol & north of Mindanao. The island of witches, still practiced today. The people are still known for demon images & monkey skulls.

Spunjer · 9th September 2005, 11:53 AM

hmm... a LuzViMinda sword.

bill, good point on the Siquijor angle.

themorningstar · 9th September 2005, 01:06 PM

it's a sundang....

Spunjer · 10th September 2005, 12:43 PM

robert,

the twine that binds the skull to the scabbard: what is it made out of? is it reed or plastic?

29th August 2005, 12:46 AM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	New Sword Greetings, I just picked this up off of e-bay. I don't have any information on it yet, just this bad picture. The seller said that he thinks it is Iban. I have no idea. As usual I'm hoping someone can tell me more about it. The seller had it packed for shipping at time of sale but said the blade is over two foot long. Thanks. Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 29th August 2005 at 03:07 PM.

6th September 2005, 09:05 PM	#14
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	OK everybody, here are more pictures and info. The pictures are still not the best quality because of it being a very sunny day but I think they will give everyone a good idea of what it looks like. Blade length from hilt to tip is 18-3/4 inches. Blade width at wides point is 1-5/8 inches. Blade width at the narrowest 5/8 inch. Blade at thickest point is 5/16 inch. The blade is bevel sharpened on one side only like a talibon. The skull looks to me like it has been part of the scabbard dress for quite a long time, if not from the beginning. Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 6th September 2005 at 09:20 PM.

29th August 2005, 05:43 PM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	75 views and not one opinion as to its possible origin or who made it?

29th August 2005, 05:51 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Hello Robert, It looks to me as if it is from the Philippines, I do not now much about these things , the skull thing does not seem right to me, what is it made of? Tim

29th August 2005, 05:58 PM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hi Tim, It is a monkey skull. The seller said that this was brought back by his grandfather after WWII. Robert

29th August 2005, 07:59 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I'll admit I'm surprised too. Why aren't the PI people swarming on this one? Isn't it some sort of talibon? F

29th August 2005, 09:28 PM	#6
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	This is the one I used to have : The origin was also the Philippines. There was a thread quite some time ago, perhaps someone could help in finding it ?

29th August 2005, 10:04 PM	#7
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Freddy, What did the blade on the one you had look like, did it look like the one on mine or was it of a different style alltogether? Robert

29th August 2005, 10:08 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Robert , when you get it better pictures and measurements will tell us more . The blade profile seems not quite right for a garab or talibon ; too much belly too far forward . http://www.vikingsword.com/rila/krieger.html http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/ifugao/index.html

2nd September 2005, 04:55 AM	#9
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Hey Robert! How far is Centerville,KS from KC,MO? I wouldn't mind actually seeing that piece in person. Post close-ups of the hilt and the scabbard when you get it as well as the ricasso. Federico may be correct on the Panay origin, but I might even go further and say it's from Capiz or Aklan province on Panay island. If that's the case, the monkey skull would be consistent with the area. However, Ian does make a point that the blade looks more like a parang nabur than a typical sanduko blade. Anyways, post better pics when it comes in and most likely someone here can probably better identify it. Zel

2nd September 2005, 05:21 AM	#10
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Zel, It's about 75 miles or so from KC, MO to where I live. I will be posting a lot more pictures as soon as the sword gets here. If you still want to see it in person we can arange something later this fall after I get done with my next surgery. Robert

2nd September 2005, 08:08 AM	#11
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Come on guys, skip meeting in Kansas City, and fly out to Minnesota and we can have ourselves a good ol time Ill buy the first few rounds of San Miguel

2nd September 2005, 10:28 PM	#12
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Hey Federico! Did you say San Miguels? Very tempting !!! Make it Red Horses and I'll be there tomorrow! Robert, sounds good! Post pics. If you're ever in KC just email me and we can arrange a meeting. I'll even let LabanTayo know so that he can bring some of his stuff over. ...now what about those San Miguels

2nd September 2005, 11:09 PM	#13
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Zel, Sounds great. Let me heal up a bit and I'll e-mail you and we can get thing arranged. Must be somewhere up there we can get a few Red Horses. Federico, I'd love to come to Minnesota but I'm afraid I'll have to pass, at least for now anyway. I hope to be able to meet a few of the forum members some day. Robert

6th September 2005, 09:13 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I rather like that. I am very keen on weapons made in the back woods so to speak. I just think some of the things made away from town with limited tools show some of the cleanest of line and thought in construction. Tim

7th September 2005, 05:31 AM	#16
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Interesting sword, Robert. I like it very much. I've got little to add to the prior observations. I agree with Ian that the blade profile strongly resembles that of a parang nabur. The handle is similar to some I've seen (parang nabur without knuckle-guards are, apparantly, rare but not unknown), but the angle of mounting is unusual for that sword, and may be partly responsible for a vague talibon appearance. The scabbard is not very helpful, nor is the monkey skull. The scabbard construction of two pieces of wood bound together by plaited rattan appears across SEA, as do monkeys (anyone feel confident enough to take a stab at identifying the species? ). I'm going to default to a generic "golok" for this one for the time being.

8th September 2005, 08:25 AM	#17
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Interesting sword.... It has all the characteristics of a Visayan sword, but where in the Visayas is a good question. If you look at the sword as a whole (blade, hilt, and scabbard) it appears to be a Visayan sword. However, if you analyze each part, then the sword looks like it was pieced together from different regions in the Visayas. Confused? I'll explain... First, let's look at the blade. Andrew is correct that the blade does have a vague talibon appearance. In fact calling this a talibon or talibong would be acceptable since the term is a generic name for a fighting sword throughout the Visayas. The narrow ricasso is typical, while the blade widens towards the point. Also, the offset angle of the tang at almost 45 degrees is typical. This puts most of the weight of the blade towards the end making this a formidable chopper. The single bevel is also typical for a Visayan blade. Blades with these features are usually found on Leyte, Samar, and Cebu while the blades from Panay and Negros usually have wider ricassos with very little to no offset of the tang....there are those rare exceptions. But by looking at just the blade and the striking resemblence to the typical "talibon" blade, it appears that the blade is most likely from Leyte or Samar...maybe even Cebu. Next, let's look at the hilt. The hilt is a rather plain figural hilt. It isn't the typical Ilongo deity form or the Aklanon/Capiz deity form found on a Sanduko. Actually, figural hilts are quite common all over the Visayas....from Panay to Bohol. Figural hilts can be found on talibons, binangons, sundangs, sandukos, etc. The hilt really isn't much of a good indicator to the origin of this piece. However, the lack of a metal ferrule eliminates it from being an Ilongo piece (Eastern Panay/Negros Occidental.) The thin ratan band is mainly decorative which again is more consitent with pieces from Leyte, Samar, and Cebu. However, you will see this on a few sandukos and talibongs from Aklan,Capiz, and Antique IF there isn't a guard present. Finally, lets look at the scabbard. This is the part of the sword that is really confusing. First off, it lacks a leather throat piece typical of Ilongo scabbards. Also, the scabbard isn't completely straight and squared off like most Ilongo scabbards. This scabbard, however, shows more Aklanon/Capiz traits with the curled-up toe. This can be seen on the Sanduko scabbards where the toe turns-up to almost a 90 degree angle. Even recently made talibong scabbards from Aklan have this feature. Scabbards from the Eastern Visayas (Leyte, Samar, Cebu) usually have scabbards that taper with the form of the blade and the toes of the scabbard usually turn up, but not that drastically as those from Aklan and Capiz. Looking at the just the shape of the scabbard, I would assume it was from Aklan or Capiz in Panay. But to add to the confusion even more is the way the hanger is set up. On this scabbard, it looks as if the top face of the scabbard was drilled through so a rope belt can be lashed on. This is usually seen on swords from Luzon and not the Visayas. In the Visayas a hanger block is usually carved out very prominantly and is drilled through. In Aklan and Capiz, the hanger block is slotted and not drilled through. As for the monkey skull, it looks more like a later add on. It actually looks like something you would see on an Igorot piece or other highland Luzon tribe. However, my sister did see a few bolos in Aklan that sported monkey skulls on their scabbards. I know she isn't lying since she wouldn't pick me up one since she's a member of PETA and is such a tree-hugging hippy that buying me a bolo with a monkey skull on the scabbard would be immoral to her. Well I didn't see any when I was there, but I did pick up a talibon with beetle wings on the scabbard. So where is the scabbard from? Good question, but it looks Aklanon to me. So where in the Visayas is this sword from? We can rule out Negros Occidental and Iloilo province on Panay which leaves us with a lot of territory in the Visayas. My guess would be Leyte based on just the blade, but I would guess Aklan or Capiz by just the scabbard. The sword is definately old and unique. Finally, I'll throw out another possibility...Mindanao. Not from the native Lumad tribes, but from the number of Visayan immigrants that settled there. This sword could be from around Ozamis, Cagayan de Oro, Iligan, Butuan, etc. There are a number of Visayans living in Mindanao that may explain those oddball swords with both Lumad and Visayan features...something else to think about.

8th September 2005, 12:49 PM	#18
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	here is a shot in the dark-Siquijor, located to the south of Negros, Cebu, & Bohol & north of Mindanao. The island of witches, still practiced today. The people are still known for demon images & monkey skulls.

9th September 2005, 11:53 AM	#19
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	hmm... a LuzViMinda sword. bill, good point on the Siquijor angle.

9th September 2005, 01:06 PM	#20
themorningstar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 55	it's a sundang....

10th September 2005, 12:43 PM	#21
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	robert, the twine that binds the skull to the scabbard: what is it made out of? is it reed or plastic?