Van Gogh ... or a gun without DNA tests ...

[fernando]

Do you folks believe that a rusty crippled revolver sold in auction for a fortune was in fact the one used in Van Gogh's suicide/homicide?
... or was it one more dud to make big bucks with ?

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[Kmaddock]

Just read an article on the gun
The provenance on this is terrible and totally made up story. You might as well buy a rusty nail in Jerusalem and say it is from the cross of our lord. Crazy
Thanks for article though,
Regards
Ken

[Jim McDougall]

This is a really interesting topic, and one that has bewildered art historians for years, if not generations.
It seems that while Van Gogh has long been thought to have been an absinthe addled madman, though he did have some psychological issues, he does not appear to have been suicidal.

The 'ear' issue of 1888 is still a matter of debate, why, how and even whether it was just the lobe or entire ear removed. Despite the irrationality of this bizarre action, it does not seem to have bearing on his death in July, 1890.

It is believed he went to the fields near the Auberge Ravoux Inn, in Auvers-sur-Oise on that day to paint. It is unclear whether he had a gun (one reference said to shoot crows) or not, but it seems there were two young guys he knew at the field as well. Some say they were adversarial to him, but other accounts suggest there was some horseplay with a gun having to do with the 'wild west' fascinations which were popular at the time.

The thing is that he went back to the hotel after being shot in the abdomen, and died two days later. There does not seem to have been an investigation as he had claimed his wound was self inflicted. It is believed he intended to shield the two guys. The thing is that forensically the wound entered his body at an oblique angle, contrary to a self inflicted shot. Then why would he shoot himself in the abdomen, the most painful and often lengthy types of mortal injury?

It seems either nobody thought to collect the gun, or it was lost in the fields at the time. As he died he could not have gone to find the gun, and the boys probably could not find it either, likely staying away from the scene.

With that being the case, and given the excavated condition of the now relic gun, this may very well be the gun involved in this accident/event. As always provenance is key, and the gun is said to have been discovered c. 1960. This is really not surprising, the battlefields of WWI are still full of relics that have been undisturbed since then.

[fernando]

The way i, for one, view it...

In the absence of forensic evidence or documental proof that the gun auctioned is the one used in that sad episode, all we may admit is that it is possible, or plausible if one prefers that, such is in fact the very one. As it is also possible, not to say plausible if we stirrup a theory on the money involved that, in an extreme situation, the person that found the real gun, assuming that such has occurred, kept it for himself and his heirs, submitting a copy (from which type there are zillions) to the auction.
At such stage one is compelled to admit that, the difference in value between that of an object which possibly made part of an historical event, and that of the irrefutable real thing, ranges a span from here to the skies.
As to whether the killing was self inflicted or (even accidentally) caused by the two young men while playing Far West gunmen, this uncertainty may be paired with the spot where the gun is said to have been found. Whether the film writer was well documented or he only used his fictional imagination, we can see in the movie "At Eternity's Gate" (starring prize winner Willem Dafoe), the 'Lefaucheux' being tossed to nearby river, as per extracted image attached.


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[Jim McDougall]

Well said. As with so much of 'history', it becomes embellished by the writers, novelists and of course 'fake news' (in todays parlance).
The true story of Van Gogh has been deeply clouded in the book "Lust for Life" (Irving Stone, 1934) which was made into a movie starring Kirk Douglas in 1956. This was apparently where the suicide notion developed and most of the other distorted or embellished perspectives evolved. The movie you mention is yet another version, and while like the others fascinating and entertaining, not necessarily historically accurate.

As with most such cases, there are grains of truth which grow into crops of rich lore, and the industry of related or key antiquities thrives with innovative dealers and their concocted descriptions.

Without irrefutable chain of custody or provenance, such items can only be presumed 'of the type' or illustrative dimensionally in portraying the elements used in historic events.

[Jim McDougall]

More thinking on the perspective of the 'wild west' play scenario:

In the first place, the suicidal notion seems unlikely as Van Gogh in various writings abhorred the idea of such an act. From accounts of his abdominal wound, the point of entry was oblique, not straight forward as would be characteristic of a self inflicted shot. The idea that someone intent on suicide would shoot themselves in the stomach is unfathomable. Such a wound, especially from such a small pistol, would result in lingering and painful sepsis and death, as was the case with Van Gogh, who lasted only two days.

The story of two young boys 'playing' wild west', especially with the diminutive revolver in question seems unlikely. These small pinfire revolvers are nothing at all like the guns of the west, and cannot possibly be construed in such sense. The fancy gun actions popularized in the famed Buffalo Bill wild west shows on 1870s and later used full size guns with trigger guards and large calibers. These pinfire revolvers were the size of the palm of the hand, small caliber and NO trigger guard, easily concealed.

I would suspect these young men had some interaction with Van Gogh, and threatened him, and accidentally shot him during the issues. He apparently knew them, and probably did not expect to die, trying to cover the action by saying he had done the deed himself. He may have been trying to shield them, or could he have feared reparations if he exposed them?

There was an evolution of criminal activity well in place in 'La Belle Epoque' Paris,near the turn of the century,as would be expected in large cities. While such activity in gangs seems a modern phenomenon, it most certainly is not, and extortion and such things may well have crept into outlying regions even in 1890. This criminal gang activity which involved mugging, extortion and all manner of such crimes, in about 1900, the term 'apache' was applied to these brutal gangs. This of course likely lifted from the influences of the forementioned 'wild west shows and romanticized violence of the Indians portrayed'.These gangs were even known for a distinctly unique weapon that they evolved from PINFIRE revolvers, a kind of 'saturday night special, with brass knuckles and stabbing blade.

Perhaps these young men were in some fashion, a kind of proto-apache element who were indeed carrying one of these small pinfire revolvers.
In such case, the gun would certainly not have been dropped or left, so the probability of this gun in discussion being 'the one' of Van Gogh, is not remotely possible,

Pictured is an actual pinfire revolver similar to the one sold, and shown with a pen and quarter to illustrate its diminutive size
Next is a pinfire combination weapon of 'apache' type from early in 20th c.

[fernando]

Applying logic to how a fellow commits suicide, or suffers homicide, meets more coherence within CSI series than within reality. Such episodes can happen in the most bizarre conditions and circumstances. For example, suppose the man, against all odds, decides to kill himself, as in actual life such unpredictable episodes occur, and the young men tried to prevent him from such desperate act, ending up triggering themselves the shot, as a result of such struggling, giving (i) logic to the odd place & angle in which the projectile entered Van Gogh's guts. The caliber of the bullet doesn't necessarily determine how long one resists to death ... only potentially. There are 'good' and 'bad' shots.
On the other hand, we are hypothetically assuming that the gun auctioned was actually the one used, which could have not. To say that, there also large pinfire (Lefaucheux system) revolvers (i had some), with so large, or even slightly larger caliber than cap & ball system .44 Colts (which i also had); and not only small versions, some even rather tinier than the show off but reportedly clumsy 'Apaches'.
On yet another hand, when you play Wild West, you do it with what you have at hand; even wooden guns. It's imagination that counts, not the caliber; to be (or not) ridiculous is not in the plans, i guess. When i was young, like others, so poor as not able to have a toy revolver, i used my forefinger to order 'hands up' to my foe and bring him into custody. But i am digressing .

[Will M]

Once something like this sells for $180,000 and has been in a museum claiming such provenance the story will stick as truth. Really not much to go on since WW1 and WW2 left plenty of firearms in the ground, rivers and swamps etc.
You would have to believe very hard to fork out $180,000. France is known for all sorts of manufactured provenance and items, you can still buy supposedly WW1 and Waterloo items though it's been cleaned out of these for some time now. I'd much rather have a Van Gogh painting.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Will M

.. I'd much rather have a Van Gogh painting...

I fully subscribe such preference, Will. Specially when considering that this tasteless piece of weaponry may only surpass the category of a piece of rusted junk, if you are being by invaded by an extreme collector viral faith ... even if it comes with a certificate of origin issued by a reliable & qualified a source.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Fernando, I like your way of addressing key comments I note, its easier than my 'Tolstoyean' text, which even I have trouble navigating after I have written it

As I have always been an edged weapons guy, and am horrible at math and measuring things, I have a lot of trouble understanding calibers (and usually find it 'boring' …..shameless pun!). …...but aren't classifications of caliber and bore convertible? I thought .380 was just a way of expressing .38. The Liege weapons are indeed USUALLY stamped, but there seem to be some which are completely blank.

Such is the case with the diminutive .32 cal. pinfire revolver (post #6) I showed in earlier post with quarter and pen. It is regarded as French or German, but entirely unmarked. In its time c.1880s there were I believe regulations on marking and serializing guns in these countries, much as American arms were typically with serial numbers. This pinfire, probably with scores like it produced in huge volumes, was not. In America, the 'suicide specials' also had no serial numbers.

On that note, I actually got that gun in Cody, Wyoming and there was a most unusual museum there (not the gigantic Buffalo Bill one) which was called "The Dug Up Museum". In it were displays of many guns of the 'wild west' which are in relic condition and left 'as is' the way they were found in situ.
The displays are with desert and varied flora to show them in the context they were excavated or found. Many are fascinating and show just how dangerous some were, as the chambers exploded or simultaneously discharged in some cases.
In one case, an old Winchester rifle was found standing against a tree in an extremely remote region in rugged terrain in Nevada, and had been there since around 1890s. Anybodys guess at what happened to the guy who had it.
The Texas Rangers Museum is amazing, never saw so many guns!

Will, you are right, it would be great to have a 'Van Gogh' but I have settled for the copy of "Sunflowers" which has served well for decades with us, and conveys the desired effect. With relics, most have only intrinsic value, unless with stellar provenance, and in my collecting days, the rough examples were what I could afford. As a historian, they had what I wanted anyway, and I knew they hadn't been messed with.

As Fernando has noted, without profoundly witnessed and certified warranty of provenance, it is a rusty old item, and even with this documentation, caveat emptor!

"The Shootist" was a magnificent movie and was indeed his 'magnum opus' as he was of course in real life suffering from cancer as the aged 'shootist' in the movie. In this poignant film, the incredible identity and character of the true icons of the west are shown as only he could portray them. Naturally the 'Earp' doctrine would come into play.

We (I) have wandered of course again, but the topics of forensics, ballistics and the wild west are all important context of the times this event occurred in 1890s France. The indisputable influence of Cody and the 'wild west' even in France were it seems somewhat a factor in this colorfully mysterious case.

[fernando]

Concerning caliber systems, to put it simply, this (American) system (.32 -.38 -.45) indicates the caliber in fractions (tenths) of an inch, resulting in that, if you multiply, for example, .38 by the metric measure on an inch (2,54 mm) you have precisely 9,65 millimeters, which would be the equivalent to a conventional rounded up 9 mm European caliber.
Both .38 and .380 are the same same caliber measure, only that .380 is a later manner to indicate developed ammo properties.
The Brits, as the ones that drive by the wrong side ( ) had to have their own weird system; a table where a determined caliber, so called 'bore' (or 'gauge' as for shot guns) corresponds to the number of round balls you can cast per pound of lead.
It could be my eyes or the darkness in the picture, but i don't see in the upper revolver picture in post #6 the little openings in the cylinder for the pins (broche) to point out for the "blunt" hammer to strike ... neither in the Apache also shown, one that looks visibly (?) for cartridge ammo.
But if the upper revolver is indeed pinfire, calling it a .32 cal is somehow unhorthodox, i would say; unless it is about an European production 'chambered' for an American contract.
Perhaps the examples shown in that museum said to simultaneously explode in more than one chambers are the so called pepper boxes, famous for such hazardous episodes.
Concerning the wandering that has been taking place, i don't think is such a crime, as long as the convergent subject is about antique gun business .


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