questions on Taiwanese hoklo & hakka

KuKulzA28 · 23rd December 2009, 02:58 AM

Hello. As you may know I have a keen interest in Taiwan, as its my "homeland". I am going to be making a drawing, depicting a typical street fight in Taiwan, around the time period of 1670-1700... so around the time period of Koxinga and the beginnings of Qing/Manchu rule. I am trying to show a feud between a gang of Hoklos and a gang of Hakkas. Hoklo (in Taiwan) = Fujianese (in China), Hokkien (in Indonesia), or Min-nan (language). The Hakka are one and the same as the kujia people, or the "gypsies" of the Chinese. I don't know how many Chinese history and weaponry gurus there are here, but I need help... and if ya'll can help me out, that'd be great. I want to know what are the historically accurate styles of clothing, hairstyle, and weapons for these two ethnic groups. Other comments and suggestions are definitely welcome.

Thus far I have some ideas of the weapons involved in this fight scene... Jian, Butterfly swords, Double Sabers, Ox-tail Saber & Rattan Shield, Da Dao, axes, spear, serpent spear, tiger fork, & guan dao. I am not sure how common the jian and guan dao were in southern Chinese communities... The idea is not only to show a typical street fight in 1700 Taiwan, but also it's brutality, and the efficacy of the fighting skill... I'll be showing trapping, footwork, posture, disarms, etc. I'm not sure exactly how this will turn out, but I've been making sketches for some time.

I appreciate any and all help and advice.
Thanks, and I hope ya'll appreciate the picture when it's done...

I will NOT disappoint!

KuKulzA28 · 23rd December 2009, 07:00 AM

Also, how common were firearms amongst these colonizers? I know they had long matchlocks.. .what about flintlocks? What about European-style pistols of the time-period?

How common were street-fights? Did Hoklos and Hakkas end up fighting over city-turf, or did their separate villages wage war in the countryside? I understand that staffs, swords, and swords were the most common weapons.

Thanks, again.

dennee · 23rd December 2009, 03:13 PM

The oxtail saber was not developed until the nineteenth century.

I associate the "tiger fork" with the military. Perhaps that is a mistaken impression. But while perhaps useful in a pitched battle---or as an imposing weapon for guards---it seems an impractical weapon to carry around. Picturesque 'though.

KuKulzA28 · 23rd December 2009, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dennee

The oxtail saber was not developed until the nineteenth century.

I associate the "tiger fork" with the military. Perhaps that is a mistaken impression. But while perhaps useful in a pitched battle---or as an imposing weapon for guards---it seems an impractical weapon to carry around. Picturesque 'though.

ok, thanks, so the willow-leaf would've still been the common saber of this time, yes?

The tiger fork was a military weapon? I thought it was an individually used weapon by southern Chinese?You sure that it wasn't used by Hoklo nor Hakka fighters?

Thanks for pitching in... anyone else who has knowledge in this area, please feel free to share!

fearn · 23rd December 2009, 05:47 PM

I can't recall where I saw it, but I did see tiger forks associated with a magistrate's militia, and they also have religious aspects, as I recall.

Sticks and staves of all shapes and sizes would be very appropriate. As for swords, one way to think about it is to look at what the Chinese military was using at the time, because weapons tend to disperse. Also look at the village jians and daos posted by Josh Stout. I don't think they're necessarily old enough, but they give a flavor of what the level of workmanship on an indigenous weapon would be.

Best,

F

KuKulzA28 · 25th December 2009, 12:46 AM

That's for the pointer... I'll continue to do searching...

if anyone else has anything to offer, I'm all ears (eyes)!

aiontay · 27th December 2009, 10:22 PM

I don't know how helpful this will be, but I'll throw out a few conjectures. As it turns out, I hope to see a friend who I went over to Taiwan with back in 1987. I came back after a year, but he's stayed. The last time I saw him was in Taiwan 15 years ago; he's in the US to see his parents.

I've always thought Koxinga was an extremely interesting historical figure. When I was living in Taiwan I went to a Koxinga museum in Tainan and the reconstruction of the Dutch fort he took with a Taiwanese friend whose family came over to Taiwan during his rule.

As for weapons, I believe I read the tiger fork really was for tiger hunting. The three points functioned something like the flanges on a boar spear and prevented the tiger from running up the pole and getting you I suspect if I had to face down a marauding tiger that was killing the villages livestock, I'd need at least three points since I'd be shaking so bad I'd likely miss if I only had one!

I'd say Fearn is on the right track regarding military weapons being dispersed. Koxinga had a large army, over 100,000 men at one point. A lot of these men ended up as being part of the Hoklo population, and probably Hakka as well, and undoubtedly took their weapons with them. Also, at that time the indeginous tribes still controlled most of the island, so the Chinese, both Hoklo and Hakka, were very much a "frontier" population and had much better reason to be armed than was standard on the mainland.

Koxinga's father was a pirate/merchant (those two occupations have frequently been merged throughout history) with connections in Japan (Koxinga's mother was Japanese) and probably SE Asia as well. Koxinga relied on trade as well for revenue for his force, so it is possible that there were some unorthodox weapons from SE Asia, Japan and Europe as well in Taiwan, especially since Koxinga's troops were basically insurgents, and therefore had to get their weapons where they could.

23rd December 2009, 02:58 AM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	questions on Taiwanese hoklo & hakka Hello. As you may know I have a keen interest in Taiwan, as its my "homeland". I am going to be making a drawing, depicting a typical street fight in Taiwan, around the time period of 1670-1700... so around the time period of Koxinga and the beginnings of Qing/Manchu rule. I am trying to show a feud between a gang of Hoklos and a gang of Hakkas. Hoklo (in Taiwan) = Fujianese (in China), Hokkien (in Indonesia), or Min-nan (language). The Hakka are one and the same as the kujia people, or the "gypsies" of the Chinese. I don't know how many Chinese history and weaponry gurus there are here, but I need help... and if ya'll can help me out, that'd be great. I want to know what are the historically accurate styles of clothing, hairstyle, and weapons for these two ethnic groups. Other comments and suggestions are definitely welcome. Thus far I have some ideas of the weapons involved in this fight scene... Jian, Butterfly swords, Double Sabers, Ox-tail Saber & Rattan Shield, Da Dao, axes, spear, serpent spear, tiger fork, & guan dao. I am not sure how common the jian and guan dao were in southern Chinese communities... The idea is not only to show a typical street fight in 1700 Taiwan, but also it's brutality, and the efficacy of the fighting skill... I'll be showing trapping, footwork, posture, disarms, etc. I'm not sure exactly how this will turn out, but I've been making sketches for some time. I appreciate any and all help and advice. Thanks, and I hope ya'll appreciate the picture when it's done... I will NOT disappoint!

23rd December 2009, 07:00 AM	#2
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Also, how common were firearms amongst these colonizers? I know they had long matchlocks.. .what about flintlocks? What about European-style pistols of the time-period? How common were street-fights? Did Hoklos and Hakkas end up fighting over city-turf, or did their separate villages wage war in the countryside? I understand that staffs, swords, and swords were the most common weapons. Thanks, again. Last edited by KuKulzA28; 23rd December 2009 at 07:15 AM.

23rd December 2009, 03:13 PM	#3
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	The oxtail saber was not developed until the nineteenth century. I associate the "tiger fork" with the military. Perhaps that is a mistaken impression. But while perhaps useful in a pitched battle---or as an imposing weapon for guards---it seems an impractical weapon to carry around. Picturesque 'though.

23rd December 2009, 05:47 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I can't recall where I saw it, but I did see tiger forks associated with a magistrate's militia, and they also have religious aspects, as I recall. Sticks and staves of all shapes and sizes would be very appropriate. As for swords, one way to think about it is to look at what the Chinese military was using at the time, because weapons tend to disperse. Also look at the village jians and daos posted by Josh Stout. I don't think they're necessarily old enough, but they give a flavor of what the level of workmanship on an indigenous weapon would be. Best, F

25th December 2009, 12:46 AM	#6
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	That's for the pointer... I'll continue to do searching... if anyone else has anything to offer, I'm all ears (eyes)!

27th December 2009, 10:22 PM	#7
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	I don't know how helpful this will be, but I'll throw out a few conjectures. As it turns out, I hope to see a friend who I went over to Taiwan with back in 1987. I came back after a year, but he's stayed. The last time I saw him was in Taiwan 15 years ago; he's in the US to see his parents. I've always thought Koxinga was an extremely interesting historical figure. When I was living in Taiwan I went to a Koxinga museum in Tainan and the reconstruction of the Dutch fort he took with a Taiwanese friend whose family came over to Taiwan during his rule. As for weapons, I believe I read the tiger fork really was for tiger hunting. The three points functioned something like the flanges on a boar spear and prevented the tiger from running up the pole and getting you I suspect if I had to face down a marauding tiger that was killing the villages livestock, I'd need at least three points since I'd be shaking so bad I'd likely miss if I only had one! I'd say Fearn is on the right track regarding military weapons being dispersed. Koxinga had a large army, over 100,000 men at one point. A lot of these men ended up as being part of the Hoklo population, and probably Hakka as well, and undoubtedly took their weapons with them. Also, at that time the indeginous tribes still controlled most of the island, so the Chinese, both Hoklo and Hakka, were very much a "frontier" population and had much better reason to be armed than was standard on the mainland. Koxinga's father was a pirate/merchant (those two occupations have frequently been merged throughout history) with connections in Japan (Koxinga's mother was Japanese) and probably SE Asia as well. Koxinga relied on trade as well for revenue for his force, so it is possible that there were some unorthodox weapons from SE Asia, Japan and Europe as well in Taiwan, especially since Koxinga's troops were basically insurgents, and therefore had to get their weapons where they could.