Mysterious knife number 2

Kubur · 20th July 2015, 08:00 PM

Hi Guys,

I would like to have your opinion about these two beauties sold recently.
They are Tunisian to me but I' not sure. For sure they are from the 19th c.
They are huge like the dharia... They are really mysterious and not common. But the decorations on the grip are common on some daggers attributed to Tunisa, Lebanon or even Armenia! It's a big mess between dealers and specialists. I think myself that they are from Tunisia.

Best,
Kubur

DaveA · 21st July 2015, 08:20 PM

Hi,

The shape of the hilt, with a crested "drooping" pommel (also known as a "hooked" pommel) suggests southern Iraq, possibly originating with the Marsh Arabs ("Arab al-Ahwār"). However, the size is very large compared to other examples I've seen.

Very elegant. I look forward to learning more.

- Dave A.

kahnjar1 · 21st July 2015, 08:59 PM

Two absolutely beautiful knives. Thanks for posting.
North Africa somewhere IMHO. The two rings on the scabbard of one of them suggests suspension by Baldric as is usual in Morocco.
The "drooping pommel" described by Dave is not necessarily Iraq. Here are pics of drooping type of pommels on Arabian Dharias.
Stu

Martin Lubojacky · 21st July 2015, 10:03 PM

I would wote for North Africa, Maghreb Region (engravings on the scabbard)
Regards,
Martin

Kubur · 21st July 2015, 10:15 PM

Hi Guys,
Thanks for your messages.
I agree with Stu, IMHO this kind of hilt is common in several Muslim countries, such as Kurdish / Turkish and Turkish / Ottomans / Balkans....
Best,
Kubur

Kubur · 21st July 2015, 10:20 PM

Another example probably from North Africa / Tunisia
with some similarities to the previous ones.

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2015, 12:53 AM

I agree with Stu's note observing the baldric type suspension rings on one of the brass scabbards, suggesting of course, Maghreb potential in degree. The inscriptions and overall character and quality very nice!
In post #6, note the Albacete type piercing in the blade, and seeming assortment of influences in overall components, possibly Spanish colonies in Morocco? and this seems to have good age to it.

Basically many ethnographic forms of more modern (latter 19th c, onward into 20th) knives reflect influences from various places across North Africa and into Middle East in curiously contrived hybrids. While typically quite attractive they well illustrate the futility of trying to classify these regionally as a rule.

In classifying these kinds of weapons, it is usually best to describe them as accurately as possible while adding qualifying influences which might add to origin. When the classification 'tourist' is reluctantly considered in some items, the diffusion of these through commercial channels is difficult to imagine in scope.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd July 2015, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I agree with Stu's note observing the baldric type suspension rings on one of the brass scabbards, suggesting of course, Maghreb potential in degree. The inscriptions and overall character and quality very nice!
In post #6, note the Albacete type piercing in the blade, and seeming assortment of influences in overall components, possibly Spanish colonies in Morocco? and this seems to have good age to it.

Basically many ethnographic forms of more modern (latter 19th c, onward into 20th) knives reflect influences from various places across North Africa and into Middle East in curiously contrived hybrids. While typically quite attractive they well illustrate the futility of trying to classify these regionally as a rule.

In classifying these kinds of weapons, it is usually best to describe them as accurately as possible while adding qualifying influences which might add to origin. When the classification 'tourist' is reluctantly considered in some items, the diffusion of these through commercial channels is difficult to imagine in scope.

Salaams Jim, This is quite interesting since there appear to be an amalgamation of designs here... Peculiar hilt for a Sibiki or Dharia ... The stones are agate...The inscription(which is upside down) makes no sense.... Istlag benzert.

Initially the pendulum swung through Saudia to Kurdish for good reason ...even looking at Syrian etc etc but finally I found a picture of an African style ....chasing the design idea of the dots inside the circles on the hilt...at http://collectiblefirearms.com/Pictures/dag_0081-08.JPG

I think that takes us closer..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

20th July 2015, 08:00 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Mysterious knife number 2 Hi Guys, I would like to have your opinion about these two beauties sold recently. They are Tunisian to me but I' not sure. For sure they are from the 19th c. They are huge like the dharia... They are really mysterious and not common. But the decorations on the grip are common on some daggers attributed to Tunisa, Lebanon or even Armenia! It's a big mess between dealers and specialists. I think myself that they are from Tunisia. Best, Kubur Attached Images

21st July 2015, 08:20 PM	#2
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	Crested "Drooping" hilt Hi, The shape of the hilt, with a crested "drooping" pommel (also known as a "hooked" pommel) suggests southern Iraq, possibly originating with the Marsh Arabs ("Arab al-Ahwār"). However, the size is very large compared to other examples I've seen. Very elegant. I look forward to learning more. - Dave A.

21st July 2015, 08:59 PM	#3
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Two absolutely beautiful knives. Thanks for posting. North Africa somewhere IMHO. The two rings on the scabbard of one of them suggests suspension by Baldric as is usual in Morocco. The "drooping pommel" described by Dave is not necessarily Iraq. Here are pics of drooping type of pommels on Arabian Dharias. Stu Attached Images

21st July 2015, 10:15 PM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Guys, Thanks for your messages. I agree with Stu, IMHO this kind of hilt is common in several Muslim countries, such as Kurdish / Turkish and Turkish / Ottomans / Balkans.... Best, Kubur Attached Images

21st July 2015, 10:03 PM	#4
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	I would wote for North Africa, Maghreb Region (engravings on the scabbard) Regards, Martin

21st July 2015, 10:20 PM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Another example probably from North Africa / Tunisia with some similarities to the previous ones. Attached Images

22nd July 2015, 12:53 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	I agree with Stu's note observing the baldric type suspension rings on one of the brass scabbards, suggesting of course, Maghreb potential in degree. The inscriptions and overall character and quality very nice! In post #6, note the Albacete type piercing in the blade, and seeming assortment of influences in overall components, possibly Spanish colonies in Morocco? and this seems to have good age to it. Basically many ethnographic forms of more modern (latter 19th c, onward into 20th) knives reflect influences from various places across North Africa and into Middle East in curiously contrived hybrids. While typically quite attractive they well illustrate the futility of trying to classify these regionally as a rule. In classifying these kinds of weapons, it is usually best to describe them as accurately as possible while adding qualifying influences which might add to origin. When the classification 'tourist' is reluctantly considered in some items, the diffusion of these through commercial channels is difficult to imagine in scope.