Firangi, khanda what do I call it?

Kmaddock · 31st December 2017, 01:30 PM

Hi
Just picked up the attached sword in my local antique shop.
It was quiet rusted when I got it but cleaned up well
Nice sword in just the condition I like it with lots of age shown there are some star stamps on the blade but the pictures did not come out great.

There is also a small hole in the fuller where I presume a nail once mounted the sword in an old collection,
Blade length of 80 cm

Found some evidence of previous gold leaf on the handle which was nice to find

What I found interesting is the damage on the guard, took a lot of energy to do this, i was going to straighten it out but then I noticed the guard is made of two layers which you can hopefully see in the photo. I would have imagined that the guard would all be made from the one sheet interesting that they took the time to laminate it.

Would anyone hazard a guess on the age of this sword? And would yo go Firangi or khanda

Many thanks and a happy new year to all.

Regards
Ken

Kmaddock · 31st December 2017, 03:14 PM

Close up on blade stamp, finally got decent shot
Ken

mariusgmioc · 31st December 2017, 04:13 PM

Firangi. 19th century with an older blade....
My two cents.

Happy new year!

Marius

ariel · 1st January 2018, 12:00 PM

When we had only Rawson, Egerton and Stone the answer would have been much easier: straight blade without widened tip, lack of retaining plates = Firangi when the blade is European or Dhup when the blade is local. With all of the above = Khanda.

Elgood’s book ( the Jodhpur one) threw a monkey wrench into this simple approach: he calls Khanda both straight and curved blades, both with and a without retaining plates, both spoon-like and straight tips, with either basket or Tulwar handles. And all combinations thereof.

I am sure he has a reason for it, but I am still at a loss.....

mariusgmioc · 1st January 2018, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Elgood’s book ( the Jodhpur one) threw a monkey wrench into this simple approach: he calls Khanda both straight and curved blades, both with and a without retaining plates, both spoon-like and straight tips, with either basket or Tulwar handles. And all combinations thereof.

I am sure he has a reason for it, but I am still at a loss.....

Hello Ariel and HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Maybe Elgood had a reason to call this Khanda, but what if his reason was wrong?!

Kubur · 1st January 2018, 03:52 PM

Happy new year all
i think Elgood call them khanda because the hilt is a khanda style.
Firangi means only Franks, Crusaders or strangers
Because the blades were imported from Europe.
But like you Marius I would call this sword a firangi.
Ken your sword is very very beautiful, please send us a zoom on the ricasso and also the marks...
The hole was used to fix a previous hilt...I'm just kidding.

Kubur

Timo Nieminen · 1st January 2018, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Elgood’s book ( the Jodhpur one) threw a monkey wrench into this simple approach: he calls Khanda both straight and curved blades, both with and a without retaining plates, both spoon-like and straight tips, with either basket or Tulwar handles. And all combinations thereof.

I am sure he has a reason for it, but I am still at a loss.....

Local usage? After all, terms like this (khanda, tulwar, shamshir, gladius, kilij, etc.) mean, generically, "sword" in their languages of origin. It's only in foreign languages (like English) that they come to mean specific types of swords.

mariusgmioc · 1st January 2018, 07:59 PM

Hello Ken,

After seeing the detailed photos, I would estimate both the hilt and the blade to be 18th century.

ariel · 1st January 2018, 08:06 PM

Among many examples there is one with the word “khanda” in the inscription.
But only one.
There are several non-spatulated blades without handles, there are several non-spatulated ones with Tulwar handle etc.

Can Elgood be wrong? Sure. But he spent years researching the topic and is not exactly a superficial guy:-)

I would like to know the reason and the way of his thinking before I disagree with him. Wouldn’t you?

Mercenary · 2nd January 2018, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

Local usage? After all, terms like this (khanda, tulwar, shamshir, gladius, kilij, etc.) mean, generically, "sword" in their languages of origin. It's only in foreign languages (like English) that they come to mean specific types of swords.

Excellent!

31st December 2017, 01:30 PM	#1
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Firangi, khanda what do I call it? Hi Just picked up the attached sword in my local antique shop. It was quiet rusted when I got it but cleaned up well Nice sword in just the condition I like it with lots of age shown there are some star stamps on the blade but the pictures did not come out great. There is also a small hole in the fuller where I presume a nail once mounted the sword in an old collection, Blade length of 80 cm Found some evidence of previous gold leaf on the handle which was nice to find What I found interesting is the damage on the guard, took a lot of energy to do this, i was going to straighten it out but then I noticed the guard is made of two layers which you can hopefully see in the photo. I would have imagined that the guard would all be made from the one sheet interesting that they took the time to laminate it. Would anyone hazard a guess on the age of this sword? And would yo go Firangi or khanda Many thanks and a happy new year to all. Regards Ken Attached Images

31st December 2017, 03:14 PM	#2
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Close up on blade stamp, finally got decent shot Ken Attached Images

31st December 2017, 04:13 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Firangi. 19th century with an older blade.... My two cents. Happy new year! Marius

1st January 2018, 12:00 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	When we had only Rawson, Egerton and Stone the answer would have been much easier: straight blade without widened tip, lack of retaining plates = Firangi when the blade is European or Dhup when the blade is local. With all of the above = Khanda. Elgood’s book ( the Jodhpur one) threw a monkey wrench into this simple approach: he calls Khanda both straight and curved blades, both with and a without retaining plates, both spoon-like and straight tips, with either basket or Tulwar handles. And all combinations thereof. I am sure he has a reason for it, but I am still at a loss.....

1st January 2018, 03:52 PM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Happy new year all i think Elgood call them khanda because the hilt is a khanda style. Firangi means only Franks, Crusaders or strangers Because the blades were imported from Europe. But like you Marius I would call this sword a firangi. Ken your sword is very very beautiful, please send us a zoom on the ricasso and also the marks... The hole was used to fix a previous hilt...I'm just kidding. Kubur

1st January 2018, 07:59 PM	#8
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Hello Ken, After seeing the detailed photos, I would estimate both the hilt and the blade to be 18th century.

1st January 2018, 08:06 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Among many examples there is one with the word “khanda” in the inscription. But only one. There are several non-spatulated blades without handles, there are several non-spatulated ones with Tulwar handle etc. Can Elgood be wrong? Sure. But he spent years researching the topic and is not exactly a superficial guy:-) I would like to know the reason and the way of his thinking before I disagree with him. Wouldn’t you?