Billy the Kid and the Colt Thunderer pistol

[Jim McDougall]

Traveling westward in Texas, became fascinated with the legend and lore of the famed Billy the kid, who was shot and killed by Pat Garrett near Fort Sumner, New Mexico on July 14,1881.
There are many controversies about 'Billy'; his name usually William Bonney or Henry Antrim but unclear; his part in the 'Lincoln County War' 1878-1881 which branded him 'outlaw'; claims it was not him killed that night, but lived to old age in Hico, Texas until his death in 1950 as "Brushy Bill' Roberts.

The only truly accepted image of Billy is the one known as the Dedrick tintype (illustrated here). Apparently in 1880 a traveling photographer was in Fort Sumner, and made a tintype of him (in four images in a sheet). These were cut into 4, and Billy gave one to his friend Dan Dedrick. This was in that family until sold in 2011. The disposition of the other three has joined the rest of the 'Blly' mysteries.

The most perplexing of these is, what became of his guns....especially his favorite, a Colt M1877, .41 cal. 'Thunderer' revolver. Clearly in the photo Billy is shown with M1873 Winchester rifle and M1873 Colt .45 Army revolver. The rifle may be accounted for, the revolver uncertain.

These were weapons he used on the range, but not about town, and the 'Thunderer' was a double action six chamber revolver. The one he is thought to have had was with a short 2.5" barrel (termed sheriffs or shopkeeper version) and in .41 cal. The grips were black rubber.

In about 1983, a New Mexico man, Pulitzer Price winning author N.Scott Momaday bought a .41 cal M1877 Thunderer at auction, with provenance to a Mexican family where it had been since getting it from Billy in 1881, after his April escape from Lincoln County courthouse.

The gun was serial #26048, and according to Colt authorities was shipped to San Francisco May 11, 1881 to N.Curry & Brother Co. From here it appears to have been acquired by John Chisum, a key figure whom Billy worked for. Apparantly Chisum gave the gun to his cook on July 4th. Billy days after was a Chisum's Pecos cattle camp and traded this gun from the cook.

He was of course killed July 14,1881.

This seems a tight course timewise for this gun to have made it from San Francisco to traders in New Mexico, then to Chisum, and to Billy, all in two months. If this model gun was Billy's 'favorite' , he must have had time to develop that affinity with another one? as he hardly had time to 'get acquainted' with this one in ten days in July before his death.

While some 'gunfighters' such as John Wesley Hardin (in El Paso areas) used these M1877 (the .38 was called lightning; the .41 cal. Thunderer), these were actually troublesome as their double action feature often failed in the trigger action.....rendering it single action after all.

So is this gun (photo att.) possibly authentic? even with the most tenuous trail of provenance? or is there another M1877 out there, which prompted the notion that this gun was Billy's favorite?

We should be in Fort Sumner in two days, hoping possibly the museum there might have some ideas, and maybe even a 'thunderer'

[fernando]

Jim, i notice that you show a picture of Billy in a let handed posture.
Am i surprised that you miss the fact that he was right handed ?
... and the reason for this recurrent misjudgement is due to such picture having been made with the period ferrotype technique, which produced reversed images. As written by historians James D. Horan and Paul Sann, and confirmed by former curator Clyde Jeavons, William Bonney was right handed. Not to speak that knowledge people have attended to the Winchester positioning (loading gate/receiver) and have come to the same conclusion

... Unless you know of some opposing evidence ...

.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for the observation and those details.
Actually I worked at finding the correct image with him holding the Winchester in his right hand, as I frankly got tired of the back and forth over this detail and wanted to avoid spending more time with it.

The photo I posted, unless I am severely disoriented, shows him holding the rifle in his right hand. If I am not mistaken the image you show has the left hand posture. I must say that I am impressed with your thorough detail and references in the rebuttal however.

Apparently photo historians revealed that the reversal situation in the tintype (also known as ferrotype) was the indeed the case as they noticed his waistcoat buttons and belt buckle were reversed as well in the original image.

I really do appreciate your reading and responding to my post. I put some time and thought into it, and thought I would share it here as I am presently in these areas and trying to learn more on the 'Billy the Kid' mystery.

I am hoping to find more on why these 'Thunderer' pistols were suggested to be Billy's 'favorite' as the only one he seems to have had was 'possibly' the one previously noted (known as the Momaday pistol). ..which he could have only had for 10 days.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... The photo I posted, unless I am severely disoriented, shows him holding the rifle in his right hand.

Precisely Jim; the rifle held with his right hand and the holster/pistol on the left side, close to his 'vacant' hand, as per the tricky ferrotype 'negative'. Long time i have read about this often discussed particularity which, being linked to such famous person, is not a detail but the detail.
Another bizarre situation is the one connected with his preference for the 1877 double action. Could it be that Billy, a person having to rely on this kind of tool in his daily life, was not aware that such gun model was a complete fiasco. Maybe; a risk apparently also taken by Pat Garret, said to have owned an engraved .41 of the same type.
However in a different but plausible approach, if you are a trade dealer and need to publicize your stuff, which best way you may get hold of ? announce that the thing you are looking to sell is preferred buy such and such big stars ... just like nowadays.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Jim, Fernando,
This previous discussion may have some relevance. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=bulldog. The calibre is most likely the now defunct 44 American S&W or the equally obsolete 442/44 Webley.

My Regards,
Norman.

[fernando]

Good shot Norman .

What i read in the time ...
Most likely, the Colt Double Action revolver of 1877 was a response to the introduction of the Webley Bulldog pistol in 1872, which was already being imported into the U.S. by late 1873... It was well received in the U.S. because it was well made, reliable, concealable, and relatively cheap compared to a Colt or a Smith & Wesson, plus it was “self-cocking, ...In January of 1877 Colt’s offered their .38 S.A. for $15. For that money you could buy three Webley Bulldog revolvers.
And down below, the same article/author that hailed the Webley quality & reliability ...
The quality of manufacture of the Colt was far beyond that of the Webley, and indeed was better than that of most other guns made anywhere in the world at the time.
My question: how can you trust what you read ? .
On the other hand, judging by what we read out there, it appears that all gun men had pistols of all sorts .

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent entry Norman, thank you!!!

OK Fernando, that makes sense, and you're right, the 'rig' wouldn't be on his left hip unless the butt was forward for cross draw if he was right handed..which he was.

There seem to be varying accounts of what guns Billy used, but that tintype photo, being the only generally accepted image of him with the rifle and Colt Army revolver seem to have secured those as 'his'.
What became of them after his surrender is unclear, and he of course took several guns from the Lincoln County courthouse in his escape. Could his Colt M1873 Army revolver and 1873 Winchester have been retrieved by him? Did he keep the shotgun he used to kill deputy Bob Olinger and the revolver of deputy James Bell which he shot him with?

So, were the guns in the tintype of Billy actually HIS weapons? or were they provided by the itinerant photographer who made the tintype in 1880. Billy's girl insisted that he never dressed that way around town, only when he was 'out on the range'. He was more neatly dressed around town.
Again, all we have are assumptions it seems.

Again, the Colt 'thunderer' notion is understandable, it seems these were known to be used by a number of gunfighters, but in many cases as 'hide out' guns. I think the 'tale' of it being Billy's favorite is most likely pulp fiction lore and marketers hype as suggested.

As noted, persons who were known 'pistoleers' naturally had numerous guns, and writers tried to sensationalize particular types as their favorites to satisfy the public fascination with these figures. Hickok is best known for his pair of M1851 Navy revolvers, but had an array of others including the BULLDOG

Wyatt Earp has always been known for the legendary 'Buntline Special' Colt .45 with foot long barrel....but in reality carried a Smith & Wesson ( in his coat pocket!) at the OK Corral.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... So, were the guns in the tintype of Billy actually HIS weapons? or were they provided by the itinerant photographer who made the tintype in 1880...

Not impossible ... as often such 'props' were used to 'compose' the picture.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Billy's girl insisted that he never dressed that way around town, only when he was 'out on the range'. He was more neatly dressed around town.
Again, all we have are assumptions it seems...

This drives us to also assume that, the 'other' picture where he is said to figure (in the left), one taken in the summer of 1878, makes sense ... and in this one he appears in a right handed pose .

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...As noted, persons who were known 'pistoleers' naturally had numerous guns,..

I like the term 'pistoleer'; same as in my lingo (pistoleiro).

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...Wyatt Earp has always been known for the legendary 'Buntline Special' Colt .45 with foot long barrel....but in reality carried a Smith & Wesson ( in his coat pocket!) at the OK Corral...

For the reasons already exposed, while is a risk to 'swear' what he was carrying, i have a strong guess that certainly not such 'wall gun' like a 'Buntline' ... more adequate to keep in his house armoire.

.

[Jim McDougall]

Good stuff, while the 'jury is still out' on the 'croquet' photo, it remains compelling despite the rebuttal of many recognized experts.
While the individual presumed to be Billy is certainly of the age etc. forensic comparison is always strained in these kinds of matters, and the complete absence of provenance renders it suspicious at best.

It seems references I have seen on this particular image often note the other figures in it by name, and among the number are names like Chisum, Maxwell and Scurlock. All of these are persons known to be 'Regulators' or known friends of Billy's. These would be corroborating if comparing their images with other known contemporary images of them. I am not sure if this has been done, but I must imagine that it has.

Returning to the well known tintype of Billy, as noted, it is quite possible that the photographer may have provided these guns as props, however Billy may have as easily fetched his own guns for the image. With these type images by professional photographers we know that tintypes and the later forms of CDV (carte de visite) the posed person seems to almost invariably hold the same weapon forms in the same position. This is evident in Civil War images where the soldiers typically hold a Colt M1851 Navy and a Bowie knife in a notably 'serious' manner.
'Gunfighters' of course, would typically want their image to match their purported reputations, which only added to the hyperbole.

With that, the term gunfighter is not known to have been used before c. 1894 officially (in dictionaries) but was certainly known much earlier. The term 'shootist' was typically designating notable marksmen (or women as with Anne Oakley) but may have been used for gunfighters occasionally. We know of course the term was so used in the John Wayne classic "the Shootist".
The term pistoleer, as noted, was from the Spanish/Mexican 'pistolero' and with the profound presence of Mexican gunfighters throughout the 'west' of course filtered into the slang of the times. A pocket type pistol was a 'pistola'.
Wild Bill Hickok was often called a pistoleer, but perhaps loosely referred to his use of the Bulldog pistol. In later years, with failing eyesight he deferred his 'gunfighting' ways and took to gambling. When he was assassinated in Deadwood by Jack McCall in Saloon #10, he had a pocket carried Smith & Wesson #2 revolver, but shot from behind, never had the chance to use it .

With 'guns', a pocket pistol (like the Thunderer) was 'carried' , and when used was not 'drawn' but PULLED.
The revolver holstered was 'drawn'...…..and was broadly termed a 'gun'.

The 'Buntline' was actually intended as a kind of revolver rifle hybrid, and these usually had added rifle stock as an accessory. It was not intended as a holstered gun for wear for defense, and obviously its barrel would severely impair such use.
Indeed Wyatt retained his as made as a novelty, while the other four notable recipients (the five guns were presented by pulp writer Ned Buntline) had their barrels cut down to standard length.