ask for more details

chregu · 28th November 2010, 03:49 PM

Hi
I would like to introduce you to my latest acquisition.
I have now bought this Sumatran keris.
Handle: Molar Java Demam (absolutely huge!)
would like to know more about this keris, approximate dating blade, handle, Sarung.
Thanks
Chregu

tunggulametung · 30th November 2010, 09:02 AM

Hello Chregu, I wouldn't go far due to my limited knowledge on Sumatran keris. But I'm in the impression that the blade would link more to 'classical' Javanese-including Madura blade in how it is presented. I like this kind of Pamor and if memory serve well I thought I have seen it on Palembang blade. If you find the indication that the blade fit well into the sheath, I would buy the idea about trade blade. As for the hilt, it look a little 'oversize' compare to the sheath on how I see it. And goes to the hilt material, I thought this can't be very old because I learn that this material is later invention so to speak, you know kind of alternative when ivory are getting harder to obtain. I believe other members with more knowledge will share their views. Thanks.

Jean · 30th November 2010, 10:42 AM

Hello Chregu,
I would basically agree with Chandra, the sheath and hilt look Minang to me (the front part of the sampir is damaged) and the blade rather looks from Cirebon (from the shape and deep tikel alis) or may be Madura but it is old.
Best regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 30th November 2010, 11:25 AM

I have seen geraham in a hilt that came into Australia pre-WWI.

Musium Radya Pustaka in Solo has a weapon with a geraham hilt that has been there since the mid-1970's and was already old then. (pictured).

I have several keris from South Sumatera that use this style of pendongkok.

I have seen a blades of this style in South Sumatera wrongkos.

This wrongko appears to be South Sumatera, but also appears to have been damaged.

I'd be inclined to vote for South Sumatera, Palembang-Lampung general area, but possibly with a bit of mating along the way.

Jean · 30th November 2010, 12:54 PM

Hello Chregu,
Attached are pictures of:
. A Cirebon kris with a similar blade as yours but may be longer (41cm without peksi)
. A Minang kris with a similar pendongkok as yours
. A Palembang kris with a fossil molar hilt in Jawa demam style similar to yours but smaller and in a different style.
Best regards
Jean

BluErf · 30th November 2010, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...but possibly with a bit of mating along the way.

That's a good way to put it, Alan. I agree some mating has occured along the way. The hilt, blade and sheath could have been from different parentages.

tunggulametung · 30th November 2010, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have seen geraham in a hilt that came into Australia pre-WWI.

Musium Radya Pustaka in Solo has a weapon with a geraham hilt that has been there since the mid-1970's and was already old then. (pictured).

Sure, this kind of material can be as old as pre-WWI or earlier whenever new specimen with trusted dating are into knowledge. In my earlier post I should have said traditionally/historically preferred material? Something like I never heard of iconic antique pieces made of this. If somebody know there are any out there, please enlighten me. In general I'm not ready about dating but imagining should I have ivory or geraham as on option, I would choose ivory. The modern collection habit did not count as collectors generally tend to fill whatever is missing from his collection. But then again, culture is not a static set of value.

Anyway, by nature I think it is not a preferred material by true artisan who are looking into detail-I don't know about modern tool, but haven't seen anything which is elaborately carved yet. And the psychedelic color effect might be too dominant for some cultures I guess-when viewed from traditional point of view. But economy always need to create new product called substitution (of exotic material) which can generate the same or better profit-I hope I don't offended anyone by mentioning this.

Nevertheless, I like how it ranges from soft yellow to dark orange and adore it as luxury, something once I want to have but couldn't afford

A. G. Maisey · 30th November 2010, 08:39 PM

I've owned a number of hilts and wrongkos from geraham, and frankly I do not like it.

Some has been fossilised material, some has been from fresh elephant teeth.

It is a swine of a material to work, and I cannot imagine how the old ones I've seen were worked.

I think it is relatively certain that we will not find hilts from geraham that date back too far into the 19th century. I have seen more geraham in hilts and wrongkos during the last ten years than I saw in the previous 40 years.

However, all that said, it can look absolutely fantastic in a photo or on display, and it is very popular with collectors.

As Tunggulametung says, there is no comparison between geraham and ivory from the point of view of tradition, or just plain, pure class. Ivory carves magnificently, geraham will not support fine carving and is inclined to chip very easily.

28th November 2010, 03:49 PM	#1
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	ask for more details Hi I would like to introduce you to my latest acquisition. I have now bought this Sumatran keris. Handle: Molar Java Demam (absolutely huge!) would like to know more about this keris, approximate dating blade, handle, Sarung. Thanks Chregu Attached Images

30th November 2010, 11:25 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,876	I have seen geraham in a hilt that came into Australia pre-WWI. Musium Radya Pustaka in Solo has a weapon with a geraham hilt that has been there since the mid-1970's and was already old then. (pictured). I have several keris from South Sumatera that use this style of pendongkok. I have seen a blades of this style in South Sumatera wrongkos. This wrongko appears to be South Sumatera, but also appears to have been damaged. I'd be inclined to vote for South Sumatera, Palembang-Lampung general area, but possibly with a bit of mating along the way. Attached Images

30th November 2010, 12:54 PM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Chregu, Attached are pictures of: . A Cirebon kris with a similar blade as yours but may be longer (41cm without peksi) . A Minang kris with a similar pendongkok as yours . A Palembang kris with a fossil molar hilt in Jawa demam style similar to yours but smaller and in a different style. Best regards Jean Attached Images

30th November 2010, 09:02 AM	#2
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Hello Chregu, I wouldn't go far due to my limited knowledge on Sumatran keris. But I'm in the impression that the blade would link more to 'classical' Javanese-including Madura blade in how it is presented. I like this kind of Pamor and if memory serve well I thought I have seen it on Palembang blade. If you find the indication that the blade fit well into the sheath, I would buy the idea about trade blade. As for the hilt, it look a little 'oversize' compare to the sheath on how I see it. And goes to the hilt material, I thought this can't be very old because I learn that this material is later invention so to speak, you know kind of alternative when ivory are getting harder to obtain. I believe other members with more knowledge will share their views. Thanks.

30th November 2010, 10:42 AM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Chregu, I would basically agree with Chandra, the sheath and hilt look Minang to me (the front part of the sampir is damaged) and the blade rather looks from Cirebon (from the shape and deep tikel alis) or may be Madura but it is old. Best regards Jean

30th November 2010, 08:39 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,876	I've owned a number of hilts and wrongkos from geraham, and frankly I do not like it. Some has been fossilised material, some has been from fresh elephant teeth. It is a swine of a material to work, and I cannot imagine how the old ones I've seen were worked. I think it is relatively certain that we will not find hilts from geraham that date back too far into the 19th century. I have seen more geraham in hilts and wrongkos during the last ten years than I saw in the previous 40 years. However, all that said, it can look absolutely fantastic in a photo or on display, and it is very popular with collectors. As Tunggulametung says, there is no comparison between geraham and ivory from the point of view of tradition, or just plain, pure class. Ivory carves magnificently, geraham will not support fine carving and is inclined to chip very easily.