Please check it...

Yannis · 13th December 2004, 09:54 PM

Please, can some one with good library check the origin of this side arm.

Seller says it is spanish and he may have right, but I have one shamshir with exacth same hilt and it was always a mystery to me.

Spanish side arm in Ebay

Battara · 13th December 2004, 11:52 PM

Without looking at any other research, it looks like a composite to me and of recent manufacture.

Marc · 14th December 2004, 01:26 AM

Well, it looks like a variation of the Spanish M1843 sidearm ("machete") for Infantry Pioneers (free translation of the Spanish word "gastador", a class of soldier whose function was to flatten and level the terrain for the passage of trains, carriages and cannons).
The pictures are, frankly, quite bad, but the blade fits well with the one belonging to the model (is also the same blade that featured the M1843 for gunners and soldiers of the engineer corps). The hilt in the original model is similar, but with a lion head in the pommel, an straighter grip and a diamond-shape ecusson. As I said, it seems to be a variation, wouldn't be unheard of, and my bibliography on Spanish Military models needs an actualisation...

Yannis, similar hilts, though normally more elaborated, with tiger-head pommels and tiger motifs in samshirs and talwars tend to be associated to Tipoo Sultan, known as "The tiger of Mysore", who fought the English domination. Jim Macdougall, for example, knows FAR more about this than me, let's see if he chimes in. Anyway, I STRONGLY doubt the hilt in this particular e-bay piece has anything to do with India or Tipoo Sultan by any stretch of imagination, but maybe your samshir could...

Jim McDougall · 14th December 2004, 05:36 AM

Hi Marc,
Thank you for the kind words!! and as always, I defer to your outstanding knowledge on Spanish weapons....which of course are well placed here and your identification I would not question

Yannis, you continue to find incredibly unusual pieces, nice work again.

Very best regards,
Jim

Yannis · 14th December 2004, 09:40 AM

Thank you all

Battara
It looks new to me too

Marc
My shamshir defently is NOT from Tipo's armoury!
Is it possible to post an image of the lion head hilt you describe?

Jim
My dear friend, looking for unusual is easy. Find the damn right answers about it, later, is the hard part

Without the help of this forum, all theese years, I wouldnt have a clue about my half collection

Marc · 14th December 2004, 10:27 PM

Well, I must say that military regulation bladed weapons are really not my area of expertise, and I'm FAR from being above any questioning, in this or in many other fields...

Yannis, I'm sorry, I don't have a scanner at hand. A quick google search has turned up this not-so-great picture, that may or may not be useful...

I'm sorry for not being of more help...

Marc

13th December 2004, 09:54 PM	#1
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Please check it... Please, can some one with good library check the origin of this side arm. Seller says it is spanish and he may have right, but I have one shamshir with exacth same hilt and it was always a mystery to me. Spanish side arm in Ebay

13th December 2004, 11:52 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Without looking at any other research, it looks like a composite to me and of recent manufacture.

14th December 2004, 01:26 AM	#3
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Well, it looks like a variation of the Spanish M1843 sidearm ("machete") for Infantry Pioneers (free translation of the Spanish word "gastador", a class of soldier whose function was to flatten and level the terrain for the passage of trains, carriages and cannons). The pictures are, frankly, quite bad, but the blade fits well with the one belonging to the model (is also the same blade that featured the M1843 for gunners and soldiers of the engineer corps). The hilt in the original model is similar, but with a lion head in the pommel, an straighter grip and a diamond-shape ecusson. As I said, it seems to be a variation, wouldn't be unheard of, and my bibliography on Spanish Military models needs an actualisation... Yannis, similar hilts, though normally more elaborated, with tiger-head pommels and tiger motifs in samshirs and talwars tend to be associated to Tipoo Sultan, known as "The tiger of Mysore", who fought the English domination. Jim Macdougall, for example, knows FAR more about this than me, let's see if he chimes in. Anyway, I STRONGLY doubt the hilt in this particular e-bay piece has anything to do with India or Tipoo Sultan by any stretch of imagination, but maybe your samshir could...

14th December 2004, 05:36 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Hi Marc, Thank you for the kind words!! and as always, I defer to your outstanding knowledge on Spanish weapons....which of course are well placed here and your identification I would not question Yannis, you continue to find incredibly unusual pieces, nice work again. Very best regards, Jim

14th December 2004, 09:40 AM	#5
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Thank you all Battara It looks new to me too Marc My shamshir defently is NOT from Tipo's armoury! Is it possible to post an image of the lion head hilt you describe? Jim My dear friend, looking for unusual is easy. Find the damn right answers about it, later, is the hard part Without the help of this forum, all theese years, I wouldnt have a clue about my half collection

14th December 2004, 10:27 PM	#6
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Well, I must say that military regulation bladed weapons are really not my area of expertise, and I'm FAR from being above any questioning, in this or in many other fields... Yannis, I'm sorry, I don't have a scanner at hand. A quick google search has turned up this not-so-great picture, that may or may not be useful... I'm sorry for not being of more help... Marc