Markings on a D-Guard Bowie knife

[Redbelly52]

I am a new member to the forum and glad to be so. I would like to ask the group if anyone has seen markings such as I have found on my knife,(see photos). They were not obvious when I bought the knife, and it takes paint to bring them out, even faintly. I've id'd the crown over V.R. as Victorian era. I'd like to try and pinpoint the date closer,if possible. There appear to be other words below the Crown VR, but I can not make them out. Has anyone seen such a mark? Could you help putting a closer date to the production of the blade? I know blades with the tri-fuller such as these were exported to the US from England from the mid 1800's to early 1900's. Thanks in advance.

[David]

Faint indeed. I can see there are markings, but beyond that i cannot distinguish them.
Fernando, is this something better seen in the Euro section?

[Rick]

How thick is the spine of the blade?
I'm thinking it might be a re-purposed machete.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by David

Faint indeed. I can see there are markings, but beyond that i cannot distinguish them.
Fernando, is this something better seen in the Euro section?

We can try !
Some sort of (shortened) espada ancha ?

[M ELEY]

My thought as well on the espada reworking. I know there were both German and British retaiors selling their wares in the Americas at the turn of the 18th/19th century. This is a curious one, though. Spanish colonial 'bowies' were around, but this blade type more typifies an American pattern. A 'VR' and crown would indicate not only British, but also British military, right? If it was a cut-down blade (very possible as many bowies were made from old swords, files, refurbished utilitarian knives, etc), why does it look so different in it's width. If not for the marking, I'd be inclined to say a bowie-type from Old Spain or American-southwestern. I'm kinda stumped!

I think first we have to rule out that this isn't a 'foreign knife' (meaning no offense, but we know that there are other knives that resemble American bowies). It is definitely not Philippino, as many of the so-called bowies on eBay pretend to be), nor is it a gaucho-type. The broad blade, clipped point and tight line fullers reminds me of Asian blades, but again, that doesn't make sense! The D-guard and grip look right for a classic bowie. Is the VR/crown spurious? I know the GR/crown symbol was 'borrowed' by German sword-makers into the 19th century, so why not this marking? Did Great Britain make a wide machete that could have been this weapon's origin? While Sheffield did inport bowies and blades, the blade on this one looks 'piratey', more Caribbean or Spanish colonial, not the refined work of Sheffield.

I love this piece, but there are still unanswered questions...

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
I suspect Rick is correct and this is a reworked machete blade. The crowned V.R. could easily be a manufacturers way of giving his goods a stamp of perceived quality rather than a British military marking. Have a look at these matchets/machetes and note the triple fullers. I think the blade in question although substantial looks from the photographs to be too thin to have started life as a large knife.
Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

This one is truly an anomaly. All the suggestions here so far are well placed and viable, and I can only add more logs to the fire.

As Fernando suggested, this hilt rings very 'espada ancha' to me, and does not correspond to any D guard Confederate bowie hilts I am familiar with. As Mark suggests, this blade more corresponds to the American style Bowie forms, but here is where the problems take hold.

As Norman has pointed out, the triple fuller pattern is consistent with Solingen made trade blades which included 'cutlass' and 'machete' types.
However, this blade, which as noted, may be reprofiled from a larger blade, the blade back seems to 'peak' away from the fuller pattern to correspond to an equally peaked edge to form a kind of widened 'falchion' type blade.

It would seem difficult to reprofile a blade to have these 'peaks' to achieve the 'Bowie' clipped point effect from a blade of the Solingen forms seen.

As far as I have known, the spurious GR or VR marks were never used by Solingen or any other production locations, quite honestly British blades did not have a particularly good reputation. Sheffield, on the other hand, was a private enterprise which did not furnish blades to the government, so would not have had these arsenal type marks.

As Mark has well noted this blade is hardly the work of Sheffield, and appears to be more 'blacksmith' character.

The Spanish colonial espada ancha, while used into the second quarter of 19th century, had mostly reduced in size to what closely resembled the large Bowie knives that had evolved after the Alamo (1836). They became known colloquially on the frontiers as 'frog stickers', along with the 'Arkansas Toothpick' and Bowies. What was unique about these Spanish colonial (now Mexican) espada/knives was the tip had an 'uptick', not the widened clipped point of Bowies.

So the big question is, why the VR and crown? (are there other markings?)
Could this blade have come from one of the 'pioneer' type blades used mid 19th century in the British army. Is the location of the mark on the blade consistent with that on these types of blades?

These are espada anchas; the one at top, and third from bottom have the mid 18th c. 'dragoon' blades. Note the differences from Bowie blades etc.

[Rick]

N/T