Khyber, pesh, choora, or kard?

[shayde78]

So perusing past threads, I'm not sure how to classify this item. I'm leaning towards a Khyber knife, but it seems a bit short. Curious to get some additional opinions.

Dimensions:
in sheath - 17"
knife only - 15.5"
blade only - 10.5"
thickness of tang is over a 1/4"

Appears to be wootz (I did my best trying to capture I the photos). Also, the scabbard seems to have some legitimate age to it.

Thanks for commenting

[kahnjar1]

My pick is Choora.
Stu

[ariel]

Afghani or NW Frontier, and Choora would be the closest one.


The handle is unusual for a classical Mahsud one, might have been later to the blade, but the blade and scabbard are classic.

On the other hand, there was such hodge-podge of ethnicities in that part of the world that replacement doesn’t need to be postulated: tribal variations might be sufficient.

This one is exceptionally good : Indian crystalline wootz. Right away it puts in doubt the assertion that Chooras came into being only in the 20th century.

[Kubur]

Very nice Karud!
I like the blade.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Very nice Karud!
I like the blade.

Yes it is a "karud". "Choora" are also a karud, just a sub type. Certainly not a khyber, kard or pesh kabz. I do not understand the confusion.

[shayde78]

Originally Posted by ariel

This one is exceptionally good : Indian crystalline wootz. Right away it puts in doubt the assertion that Chooras came into being only in the 20th century.

Thanks everyone! This is one of the times when the purchase far exceeded expectations!

Ariel, what features date this to pre-20th century?

Also, I thought chooras had a more beaked pommel, no?
Kabur, why a karud vs. kard? I have seen some debates on these two terms, but would like to hear why this example qualifies as karud.

[ariel]

Wootz ceased to be produced in the second half of the 19th century. Certainly, there might have been occasional cases, but by and large it vanished from the horizon.

There is still a possibility of remounting older blade, but am I wrong thinking
that the handle is rhino?

There was a “bombshell discovery” that any brass part on an Afghani bladed weapon pinpoints it to the 20th century. The proponent was politely referred to Moser and Egerton’s collections that were assembled in the 19th and contained daggers with elements clearly labeled by the original owners as brass. Another beautiful hypothesis slaughtered by an ugly fact. He is still maintaining his position, God bless him....

Karud is just a misheard pronounciation of Persian and/or Dari Kard, and means just “Knife”, just as Chhurra in Hindi, P’chak in Uzbeki, although classical Persian Kard never had a T-spine.
Both chhurra and “Karud” are just Central Asian variants of Persian Pesh Kabz with a straight blade. They differ only in the form of handles. Likely, ethnic/tribal hallmarks.

The word “Karud” is still preferred by some collectors for stenographic purposes. That’s OK with me. Some words acquire lives of their own. We are still “Xeroxing” documents using Canon, Konika, Dell, HP etc. copiers:-)

Don’t let it bother you.

[mariusgmioc]

Hello Shayde,
In my oppinion this is a rather typical example of North Indian, possibly Afghan, straight-bladed Pesh-kabz or Karud (as Karud is a "collector's term" for straight-bladed Pesh-kabz, as Ariel accurately mentioned in his posting).
The blade could benefit from some etching and then, from the aspect of the wootz, a more accurate assesment can be made.
Anyhow, it is a very good aquisition.
Regards,
Marius

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

Karud is just a misheard pronounciation of Persian and/or Dari Kard, and means just “Knife”,

This is Ariels personal opinion....not a proven fact..and even if true "karud" has been in use to describe these types of daggers for quite some time, just like the now frequently used names of many Indo-Persian weapons and armor.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by shayde78

Also, I thought chooras had a more beaked pommel, no?
Kabur, why a karud vs. kard? I have seen some debates on these two terms, but would like to hear why this example qualifies as karud.

Shayde, here are a few examples for you...which dagger below do you think is the most similar to yours???? There are distinct differences between khyber, karud, pesh and kard. While a few examples do blurr the lines a bit, for the most part they are easily distinguished from each other. While a choora is a karud, it has certain traits that allow it to be identified as a specific type of karud...so all choora are karuds but not all karuds are choora.

In the images below you will see from top down a khyber knife, karud, choora, and pesh kabz. The next image shows three kard daggers, notice the lack of T spine?

All of these different types of daggers are distinctly different and usually easily identifiable from each other.

[estcrh]

Here is a comparison of the karud dagger that Shayde posted and a true choora....how could any knowledge oriented collector confuse the two???? Does anyone here think that Shayde has posted anything other then a karud dagger, if so what is your reasoning??