Zanzibar Saif, Should I restore?

A.alnakkas · 16th April 2012, 10:11 AM

Hey all,

I got this saif from Artzi awhile ago, its in great shape, lovely blade which I think is a trade blade. It has a lovely yelman like feature. The only thing missing is the leather and the fittings on the scabbard which I am thinking of restoring, but is it a good idea?

Also, what kind of leather should I be using and any pictures of how the fittings would look like?

Lotfy

Gavin Nugent · 16th April 2012, 02:27 PM

Lofty,

If wanting to go down this road, I would suggest getting in touch with Aleksey

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...rd+restoration

Fittings, typically I have seen the following, a single double ring fitting as seen on Saif & Kilij, the same with one ring, a single ring only with wrapped leather and I am sure other methods were used too.

Gav

A.alnakkas · 16th April 2012, 05:56 PM

Thanks Gav!

I have contacted Alexsey before so this scabbard may go to USA soon but since Alexsey cant make fittings then I must make them here.

I know for one that the fittings are usually silver on this type so maybe a jeweller can make them? Shouldnt be too hard if he makes it based on examples.

Wouls love some photos I have checked Artzi's site and there are no zooms on the fittings.

(ps: do these have drags?)

Lotfy

Dom · 17th April 2012, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

?Also, what kind of leather should I be using and any pictures of how the fittings would look like?

Salam aleikum my Brother Lotfy
have a look, at this ... seems to be a wood carved

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1376
here ...leather
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1136

as said, Artzi's "This sword comes with its original wood scabbard, but its leather cover is lost".

just a supposition, in case of, I would be concerned by this decision ...
I would look for, how to carve the wooden scabbard,
and to use colored wax to give it some patina,
because it will be too crude a new leather
any way, it's you the "Master of the game"
other solution, instead of using leather, why not a "ray skin" ??
I've a yatagan scabbard, covered with, and it's old

all the best, à +

Dom

kahnjar1 · 17th April 2012, 03:06 AM

Hi Lofty, I held off commenting here earlier as I wanted to see what others thought about leather over your carved wooden scabbard. I have one of these Zanzabari Nimchas without a scabbard and had intended to have one made. However like you I was unsure of the correct outside finish.I may be entirely wrong here but I think that if you look carefully at the extreme right hand side of the second picture of the second link given by DOM, that this scabbard is also wood, and has a lacquer over it rather than leather. My advice for what it is worth would be to do what DOM suggested and give what you have a nice patina with some suitable wax. You now also know what the hangers should look like, so we wait with interest to see the finished result.
Best of luck.
Regards Stu

fearn · 17th April 2012, 03:57 AM

Hi All,

(obligatory disclaimer: I am not a lawyer).

I'm not sure where ray skin currently falls on the CITES list (it appears that it is still unregulated), but one reason I'd definitely push for using leather from a common species is that such a scabbard will go through customs without trouble.

The issue here is that most shark and ray fisheries are unsustainable, and some species are already rare enough to be listed under CITES, whatever their legal status. Sawfish bills have been listed under CITES (sawfish are shark relatives), and there's no reason to think that more species won't follow them onto the list. Given the explosion in both poaching and the international wildlife trade, I suspect that we're going to see the CITES list grow substantially in the coming decade.

This is unfortunate no matter where you fall on the conservationist spectrum. It means that people who work with wildcrafted materials (such as the leather on scabbards) may want to pay attention to population trends in the species they are using, so that they don't inadvertently create a piece that can't leave the country they currently live in.

Hope this helps,

F

Gavin Nugent · 17th April 2012, 11:35 AM

Lofty,

This thread may help a little;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=buttin+saif

If anyone can offer you larger resolution of the Buttin collections or the image on page 79 of Tirri's work as a start, it might be helpful....and yes, they do have drags but typically no chape.

Gav

A.alnakkas · 17th April 2012, 07:17 PM

Thanks alot all!

Gav, I'll check my Tirri book (Only have 2 books anyways:PP) and see if I can get proper close ups of the fittings.

Judging from the ones you handled though, are the fittings thick? Would love it if someone posts some zooms on available examples.

Dom and Stu, sounds like a great idea imo but if you check the leather example you can see under it that there is the same carving so perhaps the wooden one was patinated later? no idea, but certainly a choice since anyways I have to make the fittings here.. Aleksey uses leather only :-(

Fearn, thanks alot for the advice I really appreciate it. Most likely I'll send this one with the newly made fittings to Aleksey so he can work on it, but will see.

Going to send a PM to Kurt so he may send me some zooms of the fittings on his BEAUTIFUL nimcha.

16th April 2012, 10:11 AM	#1
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Zanzibar Saif, Should I restore? Hey all, I got this saif from Artzi awhile ago, its in great shape, lovely blade which I think is a trade blade. It has a lovely yelman like feature. The only thing missing is the leather and the fittings on the scabbard which I am thinking of restoring, but is it a good idea? Also, what kind of leather should I be using and any pictures of how the fittings would look like? Lotfy Attached Images

16th April 2012, 02:27 PM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	resto tips Lofty, If wanting to go down this road, I would suggest getting in touch with Aleksey http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...rd+restoration Fittings, typically I have seen the following, a single double ring fitting as seen on Saif & Kilij, the same with one ring, a single ring only with wrapped leather and I am sure other methods were used too. Gav

16th April 2012, 05:56 PM	#3
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Thanks Gav! I have contacted Alexsey before so this scabbard may go to USA soon but since Alexsey cant make fittings then I must make them here. I know for one that the fittings are usually silver on this type so maybe a jeweller can make them? Shouldnt be too hard if he makes it based on examples. Wouls love some photos I have checked Artzi's site and there are no zooms on the fittings. (ps: do these have drags?) Lotfy

17th April 2012, 03:06 AM	#5
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Hi Lofty, I held off commenting here earlier as I wanted to see what others thought about leather over your carved wooden scabbard. I have one of these Zanzabari Nimchas without a scabbard and had intended to have one made. However like you I was unsure of the correct outside finish.I may be entirely wrong here but I think that if you look carefully at the extreme right hand side of the second picture of the second link given by DOM, that this scabbard is also wood, and has a lacquer over it rather than leather. My advice for what it is worth would be to do what DOM suggested and give what you have a nice patina with some suitable wax. You now also know what the hangers should look like, so we wait with interest to see the finished result. Best of luck. Regards Stu

17th April 2012, 03:57 AM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi All, (obligatory disclaimer: I am not a lawyer). I'm not sure where ray skin currently falls on the CITES list (it appears that it is still unregulated), but one reason I'd definitely push for using leather from a common species is that such a scabbard will go through customs without trouble. The issue here is that most shark and ray fisheries are unsustainable, and some species are already rare enough to be listed under CITES, whatever their legal status. Sawfish bills have been listed under CITES (sawfish are shark relatives), and there's no reason to think that more species won't follow them onto the list. Given the explosion in both poaching and the international wildlife trade, I suspect that we're going to see the CITES list grow substantially in the coming decade. This is unfortunate no matter where you fall on the conservationist spectrum. It means that people who work with wildcrafted materials (such as the leather on scabbards) may want to pay attention to population trends in the species they are using, so that they don't inadvertently create a piece that can't leave the country they currently live in. Hope this helps, F

17th April 2012, 11:35 AM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Lofty, This thread may help a little; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=buttin+saif If anyone can offer you larger resolution of the Buttin collections or the image on page 79 of Tirri's work as a start, it might be helpful....and yes, they do have drags but typically no chape. Gav

17th April 2012, 07:17 PM	#8
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Thanks alot all! Gav, I'll check my Tirri book (Only have 2 books anyways:PP) and see if I can get proper close ups of the fittings. Judging from the ones you handled though, are the fittings thick? Would love it if someone posts some zooms on available examples. Dom and Stu, sounds like a great idea imo but if you check the leather example you can see under it that there is the same carving so perhaps the wooden one was patinated later? no idea, but certainly a choice since anyways I have to make the fittings here.. Aleksey uses leather only :-( Fearn, thanks alot for the advice I really appreciate it. Most likely I'll send this one with the newly made fittings to Aleksey so he can work on it, but will see. Going to send a PM to Kurt so he may send me some zooms of the fittings on his BEAUTIFUL nimcha.