Zig-Zag Ladder Pattern

[ALEX]

Here it is:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Antique-Ind...QQcmdZViewItem
Apart from the seller who claimed speaking to Dr.Leo Fiegel a few days ago (Dr. Fiegel is no longer among us unfortunately), this sword looks legit. It displays a unique zig zag ladder pattern. Does anyone know of ANY similar pattern in existence elsewhere? Can it be authentic/original? Could the ladder rants were added later, i.e. recently? The reason to make them in the first place is to signify a "ladder to heaven", and would making any other geometrical variations be considered an anomaly (well, there is a double ladder pattern, rose variations, etc, but at least they are known, and still ladder patterns)? If it's authentic pattern - the realised price does not signify it's importance in any way. What gives?

MODERATOR NOTE: I'M ADDING THE PHOTOS FROM THE AUCTION SO WE DON'T LOSE THE REFERENCE MATERIAL. HERE ARE THE FIRST 12, AND THE REST WILL HAVE TO GO IN A LATER POST.

[RSWORD]

Hi Alex,

I found this blade to be quite interesting and actually made a run at it, albeit, an unsucessful one because the wootz is very high quality and the zig zag effect is quite interesting. I felt the pattern was mechanically induced into the pattern during forging. I don't know how you add this effect at a later date to a quality wootz blade without impacting the existing pattern. You make a good point about its intent. While I have not seen a similar pattern I have seen some interesting manipulations a few of which are seen in Figiel's book. I imagine there is a bit of experimentation when trying to manipulate a pattern and I would guess you have to make a few blades to understand exactly how a certain manipulation would turn out. Perhaps someone was attempting to forge a ladder pattern blade but didn't manipulate the ingot in the correct way and turned out this type of pattern versus a ladder or double rung ladder. Who know's. I do think the price was probably conservative because we were dealing with such an unknown and maybe his comments about speaking to Figiel scared a few bidders away. All in all I think the blade is quite interesting on this one!

[Lee]

I do not recall having ever seen that pattern before, although I do agree that it is integral to forging of the blade and that this is wootz. A most interesting piece.

Aside, the reference to speaking with Dr. Figel is remarkably disingenuous and, for me, that auction page is also remarkable for the number of 'warning flags' it contains.

[ALEX]

Rick, thank you for the nice comments. I agree with you, as I also think the pattern is original to the blade. If it'd be added after the production - it'd affect the visible integrity of the blade, but it has no visual defects, such as discolorations, etc. I also think the seller scared many potential buyers by making a false statement, but it is interesting blade indeed.

[Rick]

Impressive that the Seller can channel Dr. Figiel .

[CourseEight]

I don't know much about the particulars of altering or making blades, or how things like acid etcing would affect the wootz pattern, but doesn't it look like the "ladder" is actually slightly upraised from the body of the blade?

[Lew]

When did the good doctor pass away?


Lew

[Marc]

"Good" ole' Eftis Paraskevaides, still at work...

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by CourseEight

I don't know much about the particulars of altering or making blades, or how things like acid etcing would affect the wootz pattern, but doesn't it look like the "ladder" is actually slightly upraised from the body of the blade?

This is sort of "optical illusion", if you will. The "ladders" are not raised, they just appear as such. As with most well defined "Kirk Narduban" aka "Ladder" patterns, they appear visually raised, so it's a normal "visual effect". Also, it just can not be acid etch. An entire pattern appears 100% naturally formed.

[Jeff Pringle]

It looks like an old blade reworked to me, there is a 'modern' feel to the ladder rungs and how they are placed. This would require completely reforging the blade, so unless they started with a heavy blade the finished item would end up noticeably thin or skinny in at least one dimension.
The modern look to the rungs is due to their edges, a little too consistent and different from the ground pattern, combined with the parallel ‘ghost’ lines showing up occasionally, it just screams “angle grinder” to me – compare them to one of Dr. Figiel’s strongly laddered blades, there is a more ‘organic’ feel to the rungs.

[ward]

Blade is right i've seen this pattern before but only once long time ago. at that time it was called a tumbling ladder by the guy who had it i think its just the smith showing off his skill doesn't necessarily mean anything like a ladder to paradse. there is no way you could rework the blade with steps like this its all in the forging process. neat piece surprsied you guys let it go that cheap

ward

[ALEX]

Ward, I have to agree with you 100%. Especially with the last sentence:-)
This was an important/rare blade. Congrats to the lucky buyer!!!

[ariel]

Ward, I respect your opinion very much, but I would never trust anything uttered or offered for sale by a person claiming to communicate recently with Dr. Figiel.

[ward]

Yes I saw that and thought it was funny. I generally ignore the descriptions and just look at the piece. It is the same when people quote Tirri or Pant as gospel on the subject

[ALEX]

Very true Ward. Anyone who ever bought anything from Middle Eastern bazaars would better ignore the claims that every piece is made by AssadAllah and is 800 years old... at least:-) But Ariel also has a good point - the seller's credibility, or lack of it, hurt his business.

[Mark]

Here are the remaining photos from the auction. 12 is the maximum you can attach, so I couldn't add them all to the first post.

[Mark]

Let me see if I am understanding what people mean by the blade being modified. Are you saying that the blade was forged without the zig-zags, then sometime later they were added, either by grinding in the lines and reforging the blade flat or .... how? Forging little wootz bars onto the surface of the blade?

What catches my totally inexpert eye is that you can trace the watering pattern right through the lines, which are defined (at least to my eye) simply by a disturbance in the sworls. Would that change in the pattern happen with grinding? I can't envision how it could be done by adding metal.

Also, while I think everyone is agreeing that the surface of the blade is essentially flat and the pattern not raised, there is a slight pinching of the glare of reflected light in some of the photos (e.g., the first two below) that corresponds to the peaks and valleys of the zig-zag - it is not an even reflection along the blade such as you'd expect from a flat surface, in other words.

Final observation - some of the zig-zags are actually arcs (third photo below, right side). Does that mean anything? When I think grinder, I think straight lines unless you're using something more like an engraver, so making that turn strikes me as a tricky thing to do by grinding. Would the curve result from the post-grind reforging?

[Gt Obach]

if you grind the grooves in ... early on... then they seem to have a nicer more organic feel.....

but if you do them close to final forging... it looks more like that blade...

-- to do that sword... just use a dremel with a wide stone... to cut the shallow channel... and forge flat in a very reducing atmosphere..
-- if the sword was a heavy saber... with spine around 5mm ... then no problem at all.. lots of room for pattern..

deep prior rust spots would be left as they are... and would come back after regrinding forge scale off.

by the way... ladders can even come out when forging the blade with a very narrow fullering tool... used to draw out the barstock...

nice sword
Greg

i think Jeff's idea is good

[rand]

Talked with Leo by phone before the Butterfield auction and Zig Zag pattern was a topic as I had sent him photo's of one, was a shallow curved shamshir, with wootz wrapped over an iron core, there were many areas where the wootz was worn enough to show the core, the zig zag pattern was a shallower angle pattern than this example. Leo never had an example of a zig zag pattern but knew of them, can remember him having the opinion of them being very rare. Can also remember us specualting that the iron core was possibly an early type of manufacture, but there was no research for this.

Congragulations on getting an example of this....

rand