An unusual shark tooth sword

katana · 9th August 2006, 09:48 PM

After various threads on the so called 'sword fish' swords and whether they were actually used by natives or were 'made-up' inventions for the tourist trade. I found this on eBay, knowing that sharks teeth are generally quite sharp, usually with serated cutting edges, I would imagine that this weapon could cause serious injury to an opponent, especially with 'slashing' styled strikes. (Once a shark has bitten into its prey, they shake their heads from side to side, this causes the flesh to be cut by the cutting serations on either side of the teeth...)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Ian · 9th August 2006, 10:04 PM

There was a nice thread or two on the Old Forum about these.

Here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002203.html

And here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002297.html

Ian.

katana · 9th August 2006, 10:20 PM

Thanks Ian.....I have heard of these type of weapons... but never seen a picture.
After quickly scanning the links you provided, I can see the debate about tourist/genuine ethnic ..rearing its head. It makes logical sense to me that this type of weapon must have evolved at some time in some ethnic communities. But, as improved materials and weapons came about...these would become obsolete......such is the process of evolution

Tim, an interesting object.....also facinating is how many diverse communities have scarification and blood letting embroiled in their customs.

BSMStar · 9th August 2006, 10:40 PM

I have seen swords that appear to be made from a saw fish... this sword is made of shark teeth set into wood. These are still up for sale in places like the Republic of Kiribati (Fanning Island or Tabuaeran), sold as a souvenirs (these are not very functional). I was told, at one time... they were actually made for functional use. I have to be careful handling mine. oouch!

There was an earlier post on an auction that looked like it was made from a saw fish.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=fish

fearn · 10th August 2006, 04:02 AM

Wow, this brings back memories.

Here's the 30 second summary: There are a couple of basic ways to mount shark's teeth that differ in Polynesia (i.e. Hawaii) and Micronesia (i.e. Kiribati). It's unclear whether Melanesia has a characteristic method(s), and that's where we need more research.

In Polynesian examples, the shark teeth are separately embedded in individual holes, and they're held in place by sennit threads that pass through the holes in the wood and through a hole in the tooth. In the Micronesian method (most examples from Kiribati, a few from Truk in the old books), the teeth are braced by two splints a few millimeters across, and the whole assemblage of teeth and splints is lashed to the outside of a stick.

It's fun to speculate about why the separate methods were used. My guess is that the more restricted palette of materials available on the atolls of Kiribati or Truk meant that they didn't have good tools for gouging slots for the teeth, nor did they have good wood for that use. In Polynesia, they had greater choice for wood and stone tools, and they could mount shark's teeth more securely.

Note that the size and shape of the weapon do not appear to affect the way the teeth were mounted. Whether the weapon was a knuckle duster or a polearm, it seems the teeth were mounted in their separate, characteristic ways on the different islands.

As an aside, I just finished reading a fairly humorous memoir about living on modern Kiribati. It's called The Sex Lives of Cannibals by Troost, not that it's about sex or cannibalism. Great thing to read on the plane.

F

Jay Jay · 10th August 2006, 09:37 AM

The National Museum of Denmark has a collection of sharktooth weapons, and these should be real weapon (unless the museum's really losing it).
I think I have some pictures somewhere... I'll post them if I find them.

Tim Simmons · 9th August 2006, 10:09 PM

This object is currently on display untill the 13th, in the Sainsbury centre for the Visual Arts at the University of East Anglia. It is a rather special exhibition of pieces from many museums. I was lucky to be able to visit while I was on holiday in Norfolk. Only a couple of days left, never mind you can always get the catalogue. The exhibition is called Pacific Encounters, art and divinity in Polynesia 1760-1860. send them an email.

Tim Simmons · 11th August 2006, 08:46 PM

Skol!

fearn · 12th August 2006, 05:42 AM

They certainly were (and are) real weapons.

Interesting side-light about the armor. If you read Arthur Grimble's book on the Gilberts, he mentions not only the armor woven out of coconut fiber (what we see here), but also a ray skin (i.e. rawhide/shagreen) "cuirass" that was tied to the front to protect the belly.

I've always wondered why the Kiribatian armor was tied in front with that vulnerable little cord, but I've never seen the ray skin piece that Grimble says went over it.

Question: has anyone ever seen the alleged ray-skin part of this armor? Did it exist? The fact that they're willing to use a puffer fish skin as a helmet suggests that the ray skin story could be real.

F

katana · 17th August 2006, 02:48 PM

Another shark tooth 'sword' recently finished on eBay....seems alittle expensive?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=018

VANDOO · 18th August 2006, 05:50 PM

FROM WHAT LITTLE I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO FIND TO READ AND WHAT I HAVE SEEN OVER THE YEARS I HAVE COME TO A FEW CONCLUSIONS.
THESE WEAPONS WOULD BE DANGEROUS IF THE WARRIORS WERE NAKED BUT WITH THE ALMOST COMPLETE COVERAGE OF THE ARMOR A FATALITY WOULD BE VERY UNLIKELY.
SOME EXAMPLES HAVE THE ANGLE OF THE SHARK TEETH POINTED FOREWARD AND OTHERS HAVE THEM POINTED BACK ,THAT WOULD INDICATE A LUNGING ATTACK FOR THE BEST SLICEING ACTION OR A PULLING BACK FOR BEST RESULTS ON THE OTHER STYLE.
THE SWORD POINTS ARE NOT LONG ENOUGH BEFORE THE TEETH START AND WOULD STOP DEEP PENETRATION SO RUNNING SOMEONE THRU WAS PROBABLY NOT THE MAIN OFFENSIVE FUNCTION OF THE WEAPON.
THE WEAPONS ARE RELATIVY LIGHT WEIGHT SO KNOCKING YOUR OPPONENT OUT WOULD NOT BE LIKELY ESPECIALLY WITH THE PORQUIEPINE FISH HELMUTS WHICH WOULD BE FRAGILE AND EASILY DESTROYED BUT HAVE FIBER PROTECTION UNDERNEATH. PERHAPS THE OBJECT WAS TO KNOCK OFF THE OTHER GUYS HAT

THE DESCRIPTIONS I HAVE READ STATED THAT THE WOMEN AND OTHER VILLAGERS WERE PRESENT AND STOOD CLOSE ENOUGH BEHIND THEIR WARRIOR TO THROW ROCKS AND STUFF AT HIS OPPONENT. THE RAISED PART OF THE ARMOR BEHIND HIS HEAD WAS TO KEEP HIM FROM GETTING HIT IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD BY HIS OWN SUPPORTERS. THEY DID NOT THROW SPEARS OR USE SLINGS SO WERE NOT TRYING TO KILL THE OTHER WARRIOR JUST DISTRACT HIM.
I HAVE SEEN A FEW OF THE BIG SWORDS WITH THE GUARDS THAT WERE OVER 9 FEET LONG.

ALL THIS INFORMATION LEADS ME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THESE WERE MOSTLY USED IN SOME KIND OF FORMAL FIGHTING CONTEST WHERE THERE WERE RULES AND JUDGES. THE NON COMBATANTS WERE NOT IN DANGER IF THEIR WARRIORS LOST OR THEY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE.
THE WEAPONS USED WERE NOT VERY EFFECTIVE AGAINST THE ARMOR USED, THE FACE BEING THE ONLY EXPOSED AREA AND PROBABLY AGAINST THE RULES TO STAB WITH THE POINT BUT POSSIBLY OK TO SLASH.
THE FIGHTING STYLE WOULD BE LIKE FENCING WITH LUNGES AND SWINGS BEING KEPT IN CLOSE.
A GOOD HEAVY WOOD WAR CLUB WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE EFFECTIVE AGAINST THIS ARMOR THAN THE SHARKTOOTH WEAPONS SO KILLING WAS NOT THE PURPOSE OF THE CONTEST.
THE FIGHTS MAY HAVE DETERMINED THE WARRIORS COURAGE AND PRESTIGE OR MAY HAVE DETERMINED WHICH VILLAGE HAD THE BEST WARRIORS? IT COULD ALSO HAVE BEEN A WAY TO SETTLE DISPUTES AMONG TRIBES SUCH AS WHO GOT TO FISH OR PICK COCONUTS IN CERTIAN AREAS.
THEY COULD ALSO HAVE HAD SOME RELIGIOUS OR RITUAL PURPOSE AND PERHAPS THE LOSER WAS SACRIFICED AFTERWARDS.

CONJECTURE AND GUESSES BASED ON VERY LITTLE KNOWN FACTS BUT POSSIBLY ACCURATE IN PART.

moose · 23rd August 2006, 07:40 PM

Thought I might mention that there has been evidence of shark tooth swords used by the indigenous peoples of the Midwestern States here in the USA. Cahokia Mounds, IL USA

Here's a link to the Cahokia Site and Museum.
A very cool place that I just visited again with my family a couple of weeks ago.
http://www.cahokiamounds.com/cahokia.html

Here's a link to a good friend of mine. Larry is a avocational flintknapper like myself and student of History. He volunteers at Cahokia alot and has made some beautiful replications of the weapons found at Cahokia.
Clickable link
You can go to his home site and scroll down to shark tooth clubs if need be. http://flintknapper.nstemp.com/index.html

Here's a link to Pete Bostrom's site. This is some of the best reading on these sword clubs. Pete does some of the best Lithic Castings in the world. So he gets to see and handle all the best stuff the world over. I've been to his shop and it is truly fascinating. If Lithics interest you, take the time to view the rest of his site.
http://www.lithiccastinglab.com/gall...teethpage1.htm

moose
Frank Stevens
Great Lakes Lithics

9th August 2006, 09:48 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	An unusual shark tooth sword After various threads on the so called 'sword fish' swords and whether they were actually used by natives or were 'made-up' inventions for the tourist trade. I found this on eBay, knowing that sharks teeth are generally quite sharp, usually with serated cutting edges, I would imagine that this weapon could cause serious injury to an opponent, especially with 'slashing' styled strikes. (Once a shark has bitten into its prey, they shake their heads from side to side, this causes the flesh to be cut by the cutting serations on either side of the teeth...) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

9th August 2006, 10:09 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	This object is currently on display untill the 13th, in the Sainsbury centre for the Visual Arts at the University of East Anglia. It is a rather special exhibition of pieces from many museums. I was lucky to be able to visit while I was on holiday in Norfolk. Only a couple of days left, never mind you can always get the catalogue. The exhibition is called Pacific Encounters, art and divinity in Polynesia 1760-1860. send them an email. Attached Images

23rd August 2006, 07:40 PM	#12
moose Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portage, Michigan USA Posts: 44	More Shark Tooth Swords Thought I might mention that there has been evidence of shark tooth swords used by the indigenous peoples of the Midwestern States here in the USA. Cahokia Mounds, IL USA Here's a link to the Cahokia Site and Museum. A very cool place that I just visited again with my family a couple of weeks ago. http://www.cahokiamounds.com/cahokia.html Here's a link to a good friend of mine. Larry is a avocational flintknapper like myself and student of History. He volunteers at Cahokia alot and has made some beautiful replications of the weapons found at Cahokia. Clickable link You can go to his home site and scroll down to shark tooth clubs if need be. http://flintknapper.nstemp.com/index.html Here's a link to Pete Bostrom's site. This is some of the best reading on these sword clubs. Pete does some of the best Lithic Castings in the world. So he gets to see and handle all the best stuff the world over. I've been to his shop and it is truly fascinating. If Lithics interest you, take the time to view the rest of his site. http://www.lithiccastinglab.com/gall...teethpage1.htm moose Frank Stevens Great Lakes Lithics Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 23rd August 2006 at 08:29 PM. Reason: Added clickable link

9th August 2006, 10:04 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,195	There was a nice thread or two on the Old Forum about these. Here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002203.html And here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002297.html Ian.

9th August 2006, 10:20 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Ian.....I have heard of these type of weapons... but never seen a picture. After quickly scanning the links you provided, I can see the debate about tourist/genuine ethnic ..rearing its head. It makes logical sense to me that this type of weapon must have evolved at some time in some ethnic communities. But, as improved materials and weapons came about...these would become obsolete......such is the process of evolution Tim, an interesting object.....also facinating is how many diverse communities have scarification and blood letting embroiled in their customs.

9th August 2006, 10:40 PM	#4
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	I have seen swords that appear to be made from a saw fish... this sword is made of shark teeth set into wood. These are still up for sale in places like the Republic of Kiribati (Fanning Island or Tabuaeran), sold as a souvenirs (these are not very functional). I was told, at one time... they were actually made for functional use. I have to be careful handling mine. oouch! There was an earlier post on an auction that looked like it was made from a saw fish. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=fish

10th August 2006, 04:02 AM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Wow, this brings back memories. Here's the 30 second summary: There are a couple of basic ways to mount shark's teeth that differ in Polynesia (i.e. Hawaii) and Micronesia (i.e. Kiribati). It's unclear whether Melanesia has a characteristic method(s), and that's where we need more research. In Polynesian examples, the shark teeth are separately embedded in individual holes, and they're held in place by sennit threads that pass through the holes in the wood and through a hole in the tooth. In the Micronesian method (most examples from Kiribati, a few from Truk in the old books), the teeth are braced by two splints a few millimeters across, and the whole assemblage of teeth and splints is lashed to the outside of a stick. It's fun to speculate about why the separate methods were used. My guess is that the more restricted palette of materials available on the atolls of Kiribati or Truk meant that they didn't have good tools for gouging slots for the teeth, nor did they have good wood for that use. In Polynesia, they had greater choice for wood and stone tools, and they could mount shark's teeth more securely. Note that the size and shape of the weapon do not appear to affect the way the teeth were mounted. Whether the weapon was a knuckle duster or a polearm, it seems the teeth were mounted in their separate, characteristic ways on the different islands. As an aside, I just finished reading a fairly humorous memoir about living on modern Kiribati. It's called The Sex Lives of Cannibals by Troost, not that it's about sex or cannibalism. Great thing to read on the plane. F

10th August 2006, 09:37 AM	#6
Jay Jay Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 7	The National Museum of Denmark has a collection of sharktooth weapons, and these should be real weapon (unless the museum's really losing it). I think I have some pictures somewhere... I'll post them if I find them.

11th August 2006, 08:46 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Skol!

12th August 2006, 05:42 AM	#9
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	They certainly were (and are) real weapons. Interesting side-light about the armor. If you read Arthur Grimble's book on the Gilberts, he mentions not only the armor woven out of coconut fiber (what we see here), but also a ray skin (i.e. rawhide/shagreen) "cuirass" that was tied to the front to protect the belly. I've always wondered why the Kiribatian armor was tied in front with that vulnerable little cord, but I've never seen the ray skin piece that Grimble says went over it. Question: has anyone ever seen the alleged ray-skin part of this armor? Did it exist? The fact that they're willing to use a puffer fish skin as a helmet suggests that the ray skin story could be real. F

17th August 2006, 02:48 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Another shark tooth 'sword' recently finished on eBay....seems alittle expensive? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=018

18th August 2006, 05:50 PM	#11
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	FROM WHAT LITTLE I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO FIND TO READ AND WHAT I HAVE SEEN OVER THE YEARS I HAVE COME TO A FEW CONCLUSIONS. THESE WEAPONS WOULD BE DANGEROUS IF THE WARRIORS WERE NAKED BUT WITH THE ALMOST COMPLETE COVERAGE OF THE ARMOR A FATALITY WOULD BE VERY UNLIKELY. SOME EXAMPLES HAVE THE ANGLE OF THE SHARK TEETH POINTED FOREWARD AND OTHERS HAVE THEM POINTED BACK ,THAT WOULD INDICATE A LUNGING ATTACK FOR THE BEST SLICEING ACTION OR A PULLING BACK FOR BEST RESULTS ON THE OTHER STYLE. THE SWORD POINTS ARE NOT LONG ENOUGH BEFORE THE TEETH START AND WOULD STOP DEEP PENETRATION SO RUNNING SOMEONE THRU WAS PROBABLY NOT THE MAIN OFFENSIVE FUNCTION OF THE WEAPON. THE WEAPONS ARE RELATIVY LIGHT WEIGHT SO KNOCKING YOUR OPPONENT OUT WOULD NOT BE LIKELY ESPECIALLY WITH THE PORQUIEPINE FISH HELMUTS WHICH WOULD BE FRAGILE AND EASILY DESTROYED BUT HAVE FIBER PROTECTION UNDERNEATH. PERHAPS THE OBJECT WAS TO KNOCK OFF THE OTHER GUYS HAT THE DESCRIPTIONS I HAVE READ STATED THAT THE WOMEN AND OTHER VILLAGERS WERE PRESENT AND STOOD CLOSE ENOUGH BEHIND THEIR WARRIOR TO THROW ROCKS AND STUFF AT HIS OPPONENT. THE RAISED PART OF THE ARMOR BEHIND HIS HEAD WAS TO KEEP HIM FROM GETTING HIT IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD BY HIS OWN SUPPORTERS. THEY DID NOT THROW SPEARS OR USE SLINGS SO WERE NOT TRYING TO KILL THE OTHER WARRIOR JUST DISTRACT HIM. I HAVE SEEN A FEW OF THE BIG SWORDS WITH THE GUARDS THAT WERE OVER 9 FEET LONG. ALL THIS INFORMATION LEADS ME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THESE WERE MOSTLY USED IN SOME KIND OF FORMAL FIGHTING CONTEST WHERE THERE WERE RULES AND JUDGES. THE NON COMBATANTS WERE NOT IN DANGER IF THEIR WARRIORS LOST OR THEY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE. THE WEAPONS USED WERE NOT VERY EFFECTIVE AGAINST THE ARMOR USED, THE FACE BEING THE ONLY EXPOSED AREA AND PROBABLY AGAINST THE RULES TO STAB WITH THE POINT BUT POSSIBLY OK TO SLASH. THE FIGHTING STYLE WOULD BE LIKE FENCING WITH LUNGES AND SWINGS BEING KEPT IN CLOSE. A GOOD HEAVY WOOD WAR CLUB WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE EFFECTIVE AGAINST THIS ARMOR THAN THE SHARKTOOTH WEAPONS SO KILLING WAS NOT THE PURPOSE OF THE CONTEST. THE FIGHTS MAY HAVE DETERMINED THE WARRIORS COURAGE AND PRESTIGE OR MAY HAVE DETERMINED WHICH VILLAGE HAD THE BEST WARRIORS? IT COULD ALSO HAVE BEEN A WAY TO SETTLE DISPUTES AMONG TRIBES SUCH AS WHO GOT TO FISH OR PICK COCONUTS IN CERTIAN AREAS. THEY COULD ALSO HAVE HAD SOME RELIGIOUS OR RITUAL PURPOSE AND PERHAPS THE LOSER WAS SACRIFICED AFTERWARDS. CONJECTURE AND GUESSES BASED ON VERY LITTLE KNOWN FACTS BUT POSSIBLY ACCURATE IN PART.