Noptes: Polish Batorowka & Zygmuntowka sabres

wolviex · 27th January 2005, 07:29 AM

This thread is a result of Radu’s article: Notes on development of modern sabers, which is now one of the most popular on this forum (congratulation Radu!). While the discussion goes to the earlier times, when the sabres were born, I would like to stay a while longer by “gold era” of Polish history – in the 16th, 17th and early 18th centuries, and introduce some facts about one of the most popular dedicated sabres: Batorowkas

The name of this sabres come from the king Stefan Batory, which was elected in 1576 and quickly became known as a great leader and very popular man.

For many years there was existing conviction that sabres called like that were property of the king. Of course it became obvious that there are too many sabres with Batory’s name, to accept this theory as probably. Before the II WW, Polish arms historians called as Batorowka all the sabres of Hungarian-Polish type – so every sabre with classic boot-like pommel, with cross-guard and open hilt. It changed just after the war, when knowledge about sabres became established. So nowadays we can call “Batorowka” only a sabre which bears the name, bust or imagination of king Batory, no matter from what period, and of what type this sabre is.

There are two theories, when the Batorowkas appeared. The first one says it was during the rule of the king, when his victories and successful politics made him very popular among the noblemen. The second one, I think more probably and actually accepted, says they were produced just after the death of the king (1586 y.). Then the noblemen who put mourning after the king, started to wear batorowkas sabres, while another noblemen, celebrating election of the new king (Zygmunt III Waza – Sigismundus Wasa, from Sweden), started to wear sabres Zygmuntowkas.

Bacause of their popularity, Batorowkas were produced even in the 18th century. As a curiosity, I can tell there was even an Italian craftsman, Jan Hieronim Caccia, who lived in Warsaw, and produced batorowkas – unfortunately we don’t know how do they looked like. There is an interesting problem with it. Can we call 18th century batorowkas as a fakes? There is no doubt, I think, some of them could be produced as 16th or 17th century weapon. In 19th century, when Poland loose independence, during romantic and historical period, Batorowkas became popular once more. But of course these sabres are rather less interesting and very often made of poor materials.

Photographs:

Photo 1: King Stefan Batory himself, painting from 16th century;
Photo 2: King Stefan Batory in the later painting of Polish famous historical painter – Jan Matejko (19th century), “Batory at Pskov” – fragment. King’s armour, depicted on painting is now preserved in Hofjagd und Rustkammer Museum in Wien;
Photo 3: Stefan Batory’s sabre (not Batorowka), now in Polish Army Museum in Warsaw;
Photo 4: Batorowka sabre, at least – and by the way classic hussars sabre, National Museum in Krakow;
Photo 5: …and closeup of the same sabre – “Stefanus Batori * Rex Poloniae *”;
Photo 6: Another Batorowka sabre with classic hussars sabre hilt, from Polish Army Museum in Warsaw;
Photo 7: Blade of Batorowka sabre;
Photo 8: Sketches from the blade of Batorowka sabre, late 16th century;
Photo 9: Another blade of Batorowka sabre…;
Photo 10, 11: Two Batorowkas probably from the same workshop, middle of 18th century. King Stefan Batory lost his personableness and looks more like dwarf – just a thought

and Zymgmuntowkas:
Photo 12: King Zygmunt III himself, king of Poland from 1587 y.;
Photo 13: Fragment of Zygmuntowka sabre from National Museum in Krakow – it’s a fishy thing. No doubt it’s not a fake. But take a look at date: 1526 – it’s a date of election of Zygmunt II August, not Zygmunt III Waza. Interesting thing that date is visible on many others sabres called Zygmuntowka, so there appeared even a theory telling this sabres were made during the rule of Zygmunt I Stary (Sigismund I The Old – lived 1467-1546) or Zygmunt II August (lived 1520-1572), what cannot be true, I think;
Photo 14, 15, 16: Examples of Zygmuntowkas blades and sabres;

wolviex · 27th January 2005, 07:32 AM

next part of photos

wolviex · 27th January 2005, 07:34 AM

greetings

wolviex · 27th January 2005, 07:37 AM

Oops, now after posting I find this pictures a little to big for comfortably viewing. If you'll have a problem with this, try to right click and save them on hard drive, and next open in any program and any size you want to.

Best regards!

Rather · 27th January 2005, 11:54 AM

Thank you, Wolviex! Impressive pictures and most interesting article. Are there any of the mentioned weapons on display in the museum in Krakow? I am regularly visiting this most beautiful city 3 to 4 times a year, as I am doing business with the chemical factory in Oswiecim, but have never been in the National Museum. Hope to have time to visit it on next occasion.

tom hyle · 27th January 2005, 01:25 PM

I'm seeing "blind"/"stub" tangs; were the buttcaps on with nails? I'm interested in the extremely long lagnets on the king's actual sword. Interesting pic of the handling of a drawn sword.

Rivkin · 27th January 2005, 04:26 PM

wow, thank you very much.

ariel · 28th January 2005, 01:06 AM

Wolviex,
Any particular reason to omit the Janowka?

Just joking. Very good thread.
Are there any evolutionary or other differences between the three kinds from Zygmuntowka to Batorowka to Janowka (in order of accession to the Polish throne) or are they essentially the same generic "Polish-Hungarian" model with different markings on the blade?

tom hyle · 28th January 2005, 04:56 AM

What are your thoughts on this being the origin of the interlocking knucklebow, as seen on modern sabres? This buttcap locker sure looks more like it than the screw-on Western European types we see more often onf straight swords with weighted pommels; could that have been a dead end evolutionarily, and this the ancestral type? Looks that way to me, kinda.

wolviex · 28th January 2005, 10:54 AM

Excuse me Tom, but I'm not sure I can understand you clear enough

You're asking me about buttcap, but which sabre do you mean? sorry. About the Batory's sabre I can't give you it's measurments by now, I know this sabre only from this picture, but I'll try to look for it in catalogs.
"Interlocking knucklebow" - do you mean knucklebow attached to the pommel ? I think it has appeared in 18th century. Excuse me once again for misconception.

Ariel: Janowka sabres are rather rare, and this post treats about most popular and famous dedicated sabres: Batorowka and Zygmuntowka. There were also very popular Augustowka sabres in use through whole 18th century, but there you can see only a cypher of August II and August III on blades, so I think they're less interesting.
About evolutionary you're asking. Again I'm not sure I can understand you clear, but if you're asking about sabres itself I think we can not call it evolutionary in any way. Batorowka and other dedicated sabres are not separate type of sabres but just a sabres with imagination, cypher or bust refered to king. If you'll find a modern sabre, i.e. from 20th century with a bust of king Batory on a blade, you can call it Batorowka as well. If you're asking about evolution of Polish sabre (what I belive you know very well) I can invite you to my previous thread about polish hussar sabre, where I belive you'll find something intereting

(http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=67) . But if you're asking about evolutionary of the imaginations depicted on blades... there you can see evolution, no doubt.

RATHER: Just let me know when you'll be next time in Krakow, I will show you them with great pleasure. Unfortunately our gallery of Polish arms and armour is temporarily closed, but there is no problem for me to open it just for you

My email is at your's disposal.

27th January 2005, 07:29 AM	#1
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Notes: Polish Batorowka & Zygmuntowka sabres This thread is a result of Radu’s article: Notes on development of modern sabers, which is now one of the most popular on this forum (congratulation Radu!). While the discussion goes to the earlier times, when the sabres were born, I would like to stay a while longer by “gold era” of Polish history – in the 16th, 17th and early 18th centuries, and introduce some facts about one of the most popular dedicated sabres: Batorowkas The name of this sabres come from the king Stefan Batory, which was elected in 1576 and quickly became known as a great leader and very popular man. For many years there was existing conviction that sabres called like that were property of the king. Of course it became obvious that there are too many sabres with Batory’s name, to accept this theory as probably. Before the II WW, Polish arms historians called as Batorowka all the sabres of Hungarian-Polish type – so every sabre with classic boot-like pommel, with cross-guard and open hilt. It changed just after the war, when knowledge about sabres became established. So nowadays we can call “Batorowka” only a sabre which bears the name, bust or imagination of king Batory, no matter from what period, and of what type this sabre is. There are two theories, when the Batorowkas appeared. The first one says it was during the rule of the king, when his victories and successful politics made him very popular among the noblemen. The second one, I think more probably and actually accepted, says they were produced just after the death of the king (1586 y.). Then the noblemen who put mourning after the king, started to wear batorowkas sabres, while another noblemen, celebrating election of the new king (Zygmunt III Waza – Sigismundus Wasa, from Sweden), started to wear sabres Zygmuntowkas. Bacause of their popularity, Batorowkas were produced even in the 18th century. As a curiosity, I can tell there was even an Italian craftsman, Jan Hieronim Caccia, who lived in Warsaw, and produced batorowkas – unfortunately we don’t know how do they looked like. There is an interesting problem with it. Can we call 18th century batorowkas as a fakes? There is no doubt, I think, some of them could be produced as 16th or 17th century weapon. In 19th century, when Poland loose independence, during romantic and historical period, Batorowkas became popular once more. But of course these sabres are rather less interesting and very often made of poor materials. Photographs: Photo 1: King Stefan Batory himself, painting from 16th century; Photo 2: King Stefan Batory in the later painting of Polish famous historical painter – Jan Matejko (19th century), “Batory at Pskov” – fragment. King’s armour, depicted on painting is now preserved in Hofjagd und Rustkammer Museum in Wien; Photo 3: Stefan Batory’s sabre (not Batorowka), now in Polish Army Museum in Warsaw; Photo 4: Batorowka sabre, at least – and by the way classic hussars sabre, National Museum in Krakow; Photo 5: …and closeup of the same sabre – “Stefanus Batori * Rex Poloniae ”; Photo 6: Another Batorowka sabre with classic hussars sabre hilt, from Polish Army Museum in Warsaw; Photo 7: Blade of Batorowka sabre; Photo 8: Sketches from the blade of Batorowka sabre, late 16th century; Photo 9: Another blade of Batorowka sabre…; Photo 10, 11: Two Batorowkas probably from the same workshop, middle of 18th century. King Stefan Batory lost his personableness and looks more like dwarf – just a thought and Zymgmuntowkas: Photo 12: King Zygmunt III himself, king of Poland from 1587 y.; Photo 13: Fragment of Zygmuntowka sabre from National Museum in Krakow – it’s a fishy thing. No doubt it’s not a fake. But take a look at date: 1526 – it’s a date of election of Zygmunt II August, not Zygmunt III Waza. Interesting thing that date is visible on many others sabres called Zygmuntowka, so there appeared even a theory telling this sabres were made during the rule of Zygmunt I Stary (Sigismund I The Old – lived 1467-1546) or Zygmunt II August (lived 1520-1572), what cannot be true, I think; Photo 14, 15, 16: Examples of Zygmuntowkas blades and sabres; Attached Images Last edited by wolviex; 27th January 2005 at 04:13 PM.*

27th January 2005, 07:32 AM	#2
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	next part of photos Attached Images

27th January 2005, 07:34 AM	#3
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	greetings Attached Images

27th January 2005, 07:37 AM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Oops Oops, now after posting I find this pictures a little to big for comfortably viewing. If you'll have a problem with this, try to right click and save them on hard drive, and next open in any program and any size you want to. Best regards!

27th January 2005, 11:54 AM	#5
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	Thank you, Wolviex! Impressive pictures and most interesting article. Are there any of the mentioned weapons on display in the museum in Krakow? I am regularly visiting this most beautiful city 3 to 4 times a year, as I am doing business with the chemical factory in Oswiecim, but have never been in the National Museum. Hope to have time to visit it on next occasion.

27th January 2005, 01:25 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I'm seeing "blind"/"stub" tangs; were the buttcaps on with nails? I'm interested in the extremely long lagnets on the king's actual sword. Interesting pic of the handling of a drawn sword.

27th January 2005, 04:26 PM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	wow, thank you very much.

28th January 2005, 01:06 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Wolviex, Any particular reason to omit the Janowka? Just joking. Very good thread. Are there any evolutionary or other differences between the three kinds from Zygmuntowka to Batorowka to Janowka (in order of accession to the Polish throne) or are they essentially the same generic "Polish-Hungarian" model with different markings on the blade?

28th January 2005, 04:56 AM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	What are your thoughts on this being the origin of the interlocking knucklebow, as seen on modern sabres? This buttcap locker sure looks more like it than the screw-on Western European types we see more often onf straight swords with weighted pommels; could that have been a dead end evolutionarily, and this the ancestral type? Looks that way to me, kinda.

28th January 2005, 10:54 AM	#10
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Excuse me Tom, but I'm not sure I can understand you clear enough You're asking me about buttcap, but which sabre do you mean? sorry. About the Batory's sabre I can't give you it's measurments by now, I know this sabre only from this picture, but I'll try to look for it in catalogs. "Interlocking knucklebow" - do you mean knucklebow attached to the pommel ? I think it has appeared in 18th century. Excuse me once again for misconception. Ariel: Janowka sabres are rather rare, and this post treats about most popular and famous dedicated sabres: Batorowka and Zygmuntowka. There were also very popular Augustowka sabres in use through whole 18th century, but there you can see only a cypher of August II and August III on blades, so I think they're less interesting. About evolutionary you're asking. Again I'm not sure I can understand you clear, but if you're asking about sabres itself I think we can not call it evolutionary in any way. Batorowka and other dedicated sabres are not separate type of sabres but just a sabres with imagination, cypher or bust refered to king. If you'll find a modern sabre, i.e. from 20th century with a bust of king Batory on a blade, you can call it Batorowka as well. If you're asking about evolution of Polish sabre (what I belive you know very well) I can invite you to my previous thread about polish hussar sabre, where I belive you'll find something intereting (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=67) . But if you're asking about evolutionary of the imaginations depicted on blades... there you can see evolution, no doubt. RATHER: Just let me know when you'll be next time in Krakow, I will show you them with great pleasure. Unfortunately our gallery of Polish arms and armour is temporarily closed, but there is no problem for me to open it just for you My email is at your's disposal.