guardless nimcha

[kronckew]

moroccan? berber? spanish colonial? just acquired this one, looks like it was made this way from a local copy of a european trade blade and has been shortened after a break. eyebrow marks both sides, no sign it ever had any guard that i can see. metal plate both ends of the horn grip, pommel one looks like steel. blade 20 in., 25 1/4 in. overall, 466 grams (1.03 lb.) on it's way over from france...

[kahnjar1]

I would term this a "tribal" made sword. Certainly the general shape of the hilt is Nimchalike. The blade as you say is something which has been shortened judging by the fullers.
I have a few other "tribal" swords with different types of blades, and hilts made in similar shape to better quality "originals".
Some pics herewith....
Stu

[ariel]

The last one looks South Aravian to me : a real Nimcha:-)

[kahnjar1]

Yes I agree South Arabian/Yemeni, BUT the blade is double edged, not single as IMHO one would expect on a hilt of this style.
Stu

[ariel]

Old European one? Markings would suggest so.

[kahnjar1]

Likely I think...........

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kronckew

moroccan? berber? spanish colonial? just acquired this one, looks like it was made this way from a local copy of a european trade blade and has been shortened after a break. eyebrow marks both sides, no sign it ever had any guard that i can see. metal plate both ends of the horn grip, pommel one looks like steel. blade 20 in., 25 1/4 in. overall, 466 grams (1.03 lb.) on it's way over from france...

Salaams kronckew ...I wondered about your project sword and thought it may be evolved from something vaguely from the Red Sea region perhaps even a reworked Karabela hilt or rehilted with a reworked hilt that I cannot decide upon... It has been severely chopped about and I cannot trust the notch below the pommel since it looks not original... The blade I cannot crack but it is similar to those shown by Ariel above with no apparent markings...other than the very clear ...almost too perfect hogs back marks...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

Ibrahiim,
Assigning Ottoman origin to these swords is a pretty safe bet: till the end of WWI Syria, Iraq, Aravia were all Ottoman provinces. Ethnically, however, they have nothing to do with the core of the Ottoman Empire, i.e. Turkey.
Well, perhaps with the exception of the Karabela: even though it is clearly South Aravian, the name Karabela stems from the Turkish town Karabel. I doubt, however, that the original owner(s) ever called it by that name: just "sayf" :-)



As to ## 2 and 3, I re-examined them very carefully and could not find any evidence of re-hilting. There is still uncleaned black patina of the blades by the quillon block, the gaps between the blades and the handles are filled with old and crumbly mastique. The tang protrusions on the pommel are covered with very old patina and rust. The wooden handles are heavily patinated , with scars, losses and a myriad of old " kisses of time". If the re-hitting happened at all, it happened hell of a lot of years ago.

Sorry, old buddy, but you look at their pics, whereas I am holding them in my hands:-)

[estcrh]

Here are some similar examples, is there any argument about these examples being authentic?

[kahnjar1]

Hmmm. Interesting swords...must be recent Sana'a rehilts
Hardly likely that such a well known dealer would try to pass off "fakes" as real swords.......

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hmmm. Interesting swords...must be recent Sana'a rehilts
Hardly likely that such a well known dealer would try to pass off "fakes" as real swords.......

Here is one that appears to be newly made, it was supposedly very recently purchased at the Janadriyah Festival outside of Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. I have to think that this type of hilt is an older form that has been for some reason frequently copied as Ibrahiim points out. The question is how do you determine older ones from newer ones.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Here are some similar examples, is there any argument about these examples being authentic?

Salaams estcrh, These are excellent photographs and the descriptions blanket cover what has been part of the mystery surrounding these forms. It is well known that the Clauberg blades appear on many of these hilts..but as you see these are vastly different hilts; some roughly formed and others that are uniformally precise...in Rosewood and Horn or roughcast wood... The same with the ironwork...roughly hammered or precisely made with precast iron to the hilts... I think they form the origin of species of the later copies done in backyard workshops in and around Sanaa. There is no argument here...

These are in my view...some of the Zanzibar forms later copied in Sanaa. The Sanaa copies used Ethiopian blades having removed the Rhino hilt Gurade hilts and replaced (though not always) with poor quality iron. It still goes on today. Sanaa provides such stock to Muttrah, Salalah and no doubt Cairo, Istanbul and Sharjah souks. Regional variation in hilts is interesting with silver covering hilts in Saudia style sometimes in the Karabela form and other hilts decorated in pot metal...The chart by Butin shows many of the variations..but does not include Muttrah recent (since 1970)_ rehilts. In fact does not the chart by Butin below suggest a much more organised ..even industrial approach to mass turnout of the precise hilt form for which no one has put the finger upon ...Could it be Afghan production/ Indian contract?

Where I think the real intrigue exists is in discovering where the Moroccan and Zanzibar sword form sprouted out of... How did Spanish/Moroccan sword form get to the Indian Ocean and was it direct or indirect from Europe or the Philippines...or both. Was it by sea...or land? Or both!! What is the connection with Afghanistan and was there any collusion in these from Hadramaut or Hyderabad..and did the Yemeni influence in Hyderabad or India have any bearing on this trade?... How did Oman influence this weapons development and when did the Ivory gold inlaid weapons appear and was it at the time or before Said the Great took over Zanzibar as the capital of Oman in the late 1830s...? Where did the uniform hilt originate since it looks like a workshop or factory precise item rather than hand made ?... Could it have been Navy?...or military in its style?


For more blades at Muttrah see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=omani+souk


For a good example of the Ethiopian Gurade see http://stsathyre.tumblr.com/post/364...ord-dated-19th

As a general querry there seems to be a bell ringing on sword number 1009 on the Butin Chart ...does this hilt pommel remind us of an African shape but turned ?? That of the Billao of Somalia. Ilustrated below.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Most astutely observed Ibrahiim !!! That hilt with three prongs most certainly does resemble the Somalian 'billao' !!!
I wonder if there is more on the development of the billao, and obviously relationship to these nimchas. It seems these are shown in Elgood (Arabian Arms) as Hadhramauti, but it seems there are Indian counterparts.
More research!!!

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

As a general querry there seems to be a bell ringing on sword number 1009 on the Butin Chart ...

I enlarged it but is there a larger and clearer image of this chart, also is there a discription page which matches the numbers on the chart?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kronckew

moroccan? berber? spanish colonial? just acquired this one, looks like it was made this way from a local copy of a european trade blade and has been shortened after a break. eyebrow marks both sides, no sign it ever had any guard that i can see. metal plate both ends of the horn grip, pommel one looks like steel. blade 20 in., 25 1/4 in. overall, 466 grams (1.03 lb.) on it's way over from france...

Salaams I saw that the original description by the seller indicated Morocco on this weapon... I can see why they thought this as the blade is similar to other examples from there..and the hilt could be a cut back altered one from that region. I have to say that the eyelash marks are very clear...almost too clear...but that could just be accurate strike marks..as opposed to more recent. Its very difficult especially just from a photo but I would go with that; Moroccan but with severe potential rehacking of the hilt..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.