Kris - Sulu, Maguindanao, or...?

Gustav · 30th September 2020, 03:50 PM

Gentlemen,

for your consideration a kris, blade 58,3 cm, 21 Luk.
Is it a Sulu or perhaps a Maguindanao kris? Your age estimations?

There are remnants of green colour on handle bindings. The pommel is quite substantial.

Your comments are welcome.

Battara · 30th September 2020, 06:38 PM

I would say Sulu from the late 19c - early 20c.

Ian · 1st October 2020, 10:52 AM

I agree with Battara. Probably late 19th/early 20th C Sulu kalis. Quite a heavy and long (23.5") blade for a Sulu kalis.

Gustav · 1st October 2020, 11:40 AM

Jose and Ian, thank you!

Exactly, the bigger size is a point.

Regarding this kris, I am particularly interested in the feature, which Javanese call "elefants lip" on Keris, under the "trunk" and "tusk". It's quite defined, and I am looking for krisses with similar feature. One, which of course is much more refined and older, is this one, made before 1835.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=kris+spain

Besides the well defined lip, my kris shares with it a quite elaborated fretwork on gangya, the style of it being different of course.

I know that in Cato's classification this one should be Sulu, based on angle of "elefants tusk". But perhaps there is a possibility that Sulu and Maguindanao were closer or more mixed still around the middle of 19th cent.?

The last possible year of aquisition for this kris is 1891, it belonged to Valeriano Weyler, who was Governor-General of the Philippines from 1888 to 1891 and brought this kris to Spain. He conducted an offensive against Moros in Mindanao.

Ian · 1st October 2020, 03:09 PM

Gustav,

Another thing that persuades me that this is a Sulu blade, rather than Maguindanao, is that the long axis of the blade is in line with the hilt. If you look at Mindanao kris from this period, both the Maguindanao and Maranao forms had the long axis of the blade angled forward of the axis of the hilt. This is readily apparent if you lay a late 19th C Sulu blade next to a late 19th C Mindanao blade.

Attached are pictures of one of my Maguindanao kris. It has an inscription from Datu Piang to Dr. W.A. Christensen who was a U.S. Army physician. Datu Piang was a powerful leader of the Maguindanao at the beginning of the 20th C. Although this blade is slightly curved, making it difficult to draw its long axis, the midline of the peripheral one-third of the blade, when extended towards the hilt, is clearly tilted down relative to the long axis of the hilt. Compare orientation with the subject of this thread, and it is apparent that the blade of the Sulu kalis is in line with the long axis of its hilt.

Xasterix pointed this feature out to me a while ago. I have found it to be a consistent distinguishing feature between Sulu and Mindanao kris/kalis of the late 19th C. I don't have sufficient examples to comment confidently on earlier swords.

Ian.

.

Battara · 2nd October 2020, 01:51 AM

I guess there are a number of Datu Piang kris around. I have 2 for example. Ian's your's is the third.

BTW Gustav, I also look at the pattern of the back of the ganga as well as the front, scabbard, and other characteristics. Some of these are not in Cato's book.

30th September 2020, 03:50 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Kris - Sulu, Maguindanao, or...? Gentlemen, for your consideration a kris, blade 58,3 cm, 21 Luk. Is it a Sulu or perhaps a Maguindanao kris? Your age estimations? There are remnants of green colour on handle bindings. The pommel is quite substantial. Your comments are welcome. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 30th September 2020 at 05:05 PM.

1st October 2020, 11:40 AM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Jose and Ian, thank you! Exactly, the bigger size is a point. Regarding this kris, I am particularly interested in the feature, which Javanese call "elefants lip" on Keris, under the "trunk" and "tusk". It's quite defined, and I am looking for krisses with similar feature. One, which of course is much more refined and older, is this one, made before 1835. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=kris+spain Besides the well defined lip, my kris shares with it a quite elaborated fretwork on gangya, the style of it being different of course. I know that in Cato's classification this one should be Sulu, based on angle of "elefants tusk". But perhaps there is a possibility that Sulu and Maguindanao were closer or more mixed still around the middle of 19th cent.? The last possible year of aquisition for this kris is 1891, it belonged to Valeriano Weyler, who was Governor-General of the Philippines from 1888 to 1891 and brought this kris to Spain. He conducted an offensive against Moros in Mindanao. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 1st October 2020 at 12:08 PM.

1st October 2020, 03:09 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Gustav, Another thing that persuades me that this is a Sulu blade, rather than Maguindanao, is that the long axis of the blade is in line with the hilt. If you look at Mindanao kris from this period, both the Maguindanao and Maranao forms had the long axis of the blade angled forward of the axis of the hilt. This is readily apparent if you lay a late 19th C Sulu blade next to a late 19th C Mindanao blade. Attached are pictures of one of my Maguindanao kris. It has an inscription from Datu Piang to Dr. W.A. Christensen who was a U.S. Army physician. Datu Piang was a powerful leader of the Maguindanao at the beginning of the 20th C. Although this blade is slightly curved, making it difficult to draw its long axis, the midline of the peripheral one-third of the blade, when extended towards the hilt, is clearly tilted down relative to the long axis of the hilt. Compare orientation with the subject of this thread, and it is apparent that the blade of the Sulu kalis is in line with the long axis of its hilt. Xasterix pointed this feature out to me a while ago. I have found it to be a consistent distinguishing feature between Sulu and Mindanao kris/kalis of the late 19th C. I don't have sufficient examples to comment confidently on earlier swords. Ian. . Attached Images

30th September 2020, 06:38 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	I would say Sulu from the late 19c - early 20c.

1st October 2020, 10:52 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	I agree with Battara. Probably late 19th/early 20th C Sulu kalis. Quite a heavy and long (23.5") blade for a Sulu kalis.

2nd October 2020, 01:51 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	I guess there are a number of Datu Piang kris around. I have 2 for example. Ian's your's is the third. BTW Gustav, I also look at the pattern of the back of the ganga as well as the front, scabbard, and other characteristics. Some of these are not in Cato's book.