Help with talismanic inscriptions?

VVV · 21st January 2007, 05:18 PM

Do you recognise or have any ideas on the meaning of the talismanic inlay on this Moro Kris?

Michael

Bill M · 22nd January 2007, 12:22 PM

Could we see some overall pictures? The handle?

VVV · 22nd January 2007, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Could we see some overall pictures? The handle?

Sure,

Do you have any ideas of the meaning?

Michael

Dajak · 22nd January 2007, 05:58 PM

Hi Michael very nice handle does it have an scabbard

Ben

VVV · 22nd January 2007, 06:46 PM

Hi Ben,

No, sometimes you can't get it all...

Michael

Tim Simmons · 22nd January 2007, 07:26 PM

Seeing the whole blade could it be a fire breathing mythical creature. At the handle there are what might be scales then a decorated snout? and what could be flames. Do Eastern dragons breath fire or is that just European dragons which are always terrible creatures?

Mytribalworld · 15th February 2009, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Do you recognise or have any ideas on the meaning of the talismanic inlay on this Moro Kris?

Michael

Hi Michael,

I think its ( the motis on page 1 with cirlces and arrows) more or less related to a symbol what know in old works as " the headhunting symbol" .
It looks like a split of the whole symbol maybe course it has lost its original meaning.

The headhunting symbol is widespread and the most clear in the Ceram and Celebes culture where in the motif 4 birds flying away from the sun. ( the cirlce) The birds are in some cultures replaced by halfmoon motifs , half moon motifs are on their way connected with the horn motif a fertility symbol.
The sun wich is coming up and going down is the symbol of live and death.

combing these two symbols in one motif these kind of motifs are very old and used as symbols around headhunting.

Source: Toovertekens en symbolen van Indonesie - G.L.Tichelman.
Arjan.

VVV · 15th February 2009, 09:13 PM

Thanks both Ron and Arjan for sharing your knowledge.
As well as giving me new ideas on the meaning of the motifs of both the last and the first kris of this thread.

Michael

Tim Simmons · 16th February 2009, 07:11 PM

There are so many stars I cannot see the 5 star thing. I am not an expert acedemic but what I can see is a floral motif capped by a pattern of stars done in a most sensitive and economical manner in a confined space, so clever -beautiful in fact. If it does not represent paradise under the celestial sky? it is indeed very simple to read it so, one might think it was almost deliberate.

VVV · 16th February 2009, 08:29 PM

Tim,

The floral motif is quite common on Sulu kris.
Bill has earlier posted a very nice kris with this motif.
It seems to be a symbol for the sultanate?
The 5 stars are lower on the blade, inside and along the fuller.

Michael

Tim Simmons · 16th February 2009, 08:42 PM

There are still lots more stars? is the Sultan a Muslim? is the Sultanate Islamic? Perhaps the inclusion of the Sultan stars is some suggetion to ideas of an Islamic paradise/state on earth? is the 5 star configuration just a help with the overall decorative affect? No answers, but I think this is far from just random pretty sword decoration, it is purposeful. I think the artist would want other people to very quickly understand the imagery?

Pusaka · 20th February 2009, 06:30 PM

I think this inscription is not for decoration ( its hardly visually beautiful).

The inscription is also not talismanic I think i.e. its not magic

The inscription is also not an encoded message.

In my opinion the inscription is purely symbolic and is not designed for others to understand but rather it was to remind the original owner of a concept or knowledge which was important to them personally.

Tim Simmons · 20th February 2009, 06:48 PM

It is the the simple graphics fitting the form that is the beauty for me, perhaps a reminder of a passionate nocturnal outdoors encounter

http://science.jrank.org/pages/10606...iterature.html

Spunjer · 20th February 2009, 10:27 PM

here's a barung that has some neat squiggly lines inlaid in brass on both sides. i like this one since it's almost as if she's telling me a story. well, than and one of the most intricate handle carvings i've seen. which matches the squiggly lines on the blade.

...and to answer your question, tim; yes, the moros are muslims

Battara · 20th February 2009, 10:54 PM

I see a stylized okir naga on the blade - nice.

hideyoshi · 21st February 2009, 12:57 AM

are this naga? or dragons supposedly? thnks.
bad photo, sorry.

kino · 21st February 2009, 05:41 PM

WOW! 2 beautiful Barung's. Love those blades.

Spunjer that pommel looks huge.
Hideyoshi, can you post a photo of the whole Barung.

Here is one of mine that I had posted earlier. The inlay of mine looks like a centipede. What happened to the Moro tenet that images of animals were prohibited.

Battara · 21st February 2009, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hideyoshi

are this naga? or dragons supposedly? thnks.
bad photo, sorry.

Yes those are naga, and what a wonderful blade at that!

Would you post pictures of the whole think (including hilt)?

Kino, nice one too - pommel looks Samal, though need a better picture of it to tell for sure.

zambotreas · 12th October 2019, 09:15 AM

I have this lovely 19th century kris with talismatic incriptions. I'd like to post some pics of the kris and ask for some opinions. but I do not know how.

This is my first post. Hope you can assist.

Thanks

Rey

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 19th October 2019, 05:38 PM

As a complete outsider on these weapons I will take a guess and since I was looking at war canoes it does appear that what could be a "from that region" craft with the curved bows marked and of catamaran form with warriors down each flank and the central planking or walkway with the chief navigator and captain/leader …. the concept needs a seascape and I think a few inches down the blade you have just that.. but out of frame... at the stern more warriors shown . a fully armed and manned war canoe is my suggestion...

The war canoe best fitting that description is shown below and may be Maori but it gets across my point.

21st January 2007, 05:18 PM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Help with talismanic inscriptions? Do you recognise or have any ideas on the meaning of the talismanic inlay on this Moro Kris? Michael Attached Images

22nd January 2007, 07:26 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	A wild guess Seeing the whole blade could it be a fire breathing mythical creature. At the handle there are what might be scales then a decorated snout? and what could be flames. Do Eastern dragons breath fire or is that just European dragons which are always terrible creatures?

16th February 2009, 07:11 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	There are so many stars I cannot see the 5 star thing. I am not an expert acedemic but what I can see is a floral motif capped by a pattern of stars done in a most sensitive and economical manner in a confined space, so clever -beautiful in fact. If it does not represent paradise under the celestial sky? it is indeed very simple to read it so, one might think it was almost deliberate. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 16th February 2009 at 07:22 PM.

16th February 2009, 08:42 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	There are still lots more stars? is the Sultan a Muslim? is the Sultanate Islamic? Perhaps the inclusion of the Sultan stars is some suggetion to ideas of an Islamic paradise/state on earth? is the 5 star configuration just a help with the overall decorative affect? No answers, but I think this is far from just random pretty sword decoration, it is purposeful. I think the artist would want other people to very quickly understand the imagery? Last edited by Tim Simmons; 16th February 2009 at 09:16 PM.

21st February 2009, 12:57 AM	#16
hideyoshi Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 58	barung are this naga? or dragons supposedly? thnks. bad photo, sorry. Attached Images Last edited by hideyoshi; 21st February 2009 at 01:22 AM.

22nd January 2007, 12:22 PM	#2
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Could we see some overall pictures? The handle?

22nd January 2007, 05:58 PM	#4
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Michael very nice handle does it have an scabbard Ben

22nd January 2007, 06:46 PM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Ben, No, sometimes you can't get it all... Michael

15th February 2009, 09:13 PM	#8
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks both Ron and Arjan for sharing your knowledge. As well as giving me new ideas on the meaning of the motifs of both the last and the first kris of this thread. Michael

16th February 2009, 08:29 PM	#10
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Tim, The floral motif is quite common on Sulu kris. Bill has earlier posted a very nice kris with this motif. It seems to be a symbol for the sultanate? The 5 stars are lower on the blade, inside and along the fuller. Michael

20th February 2009, 06:30 PM	#12
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I think this inscription is not for decoration ( its hardly visually beautiful). The inscription is also not talismanic I think i.e. its not magic The inscription is also not an encoded message. In my opinion the inscription is purely symbolic and is not designed for others to understand but rather it was to remind the original owner of a concept or knowledge which was important to them personally.

20th February 2009, 06:48 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	It is the the simple graphics fitting the form that is the beauty for me, perhaps a reminder of a passionate nocturnal outdoors encounter http://science.jrank.org/pages/10606...iterature.html

20th February 2009, 10:27 PM	#14
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	here's a barung that has some neat squiggly lines inlaid in brass on both sides. i like this one since it's almost as if she's telling me a story. well, than and one of the most intricate handle carvings i've seen. which matches the squiggly lines on the blade. ...and to answer your question, tim; yes, the moros are muslims

20th February 2009, 10:54 PM	#15
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	I see a stylized okir naga on the blade - nice.

21st February 2009, 05:41 PM	#17
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,004	WOW! 2 beautiful Barung's. Love those blades. Spunjer that pommel looks huge. Hideyoshi, can you post a photo of the whole Barung. Here is one of mine that I had posted earlier. The inlay of mine looks like a centipede. What happened to the Moro tenet that images of animals were prohibited. Attached Images

12th October 2019, 09:15 AM	#19
zambotreas Member Join Date: Oct 2019 Posts: 1	talismatic kris I have this lovely 19th century kris with talismatic incriptions. I'd like to post some pics of the kris and ask for some opinions. but I do not know how. This is my first post. Hope you can assist. Thanks Rey

19th October 2019, 05:38 PM	#20
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	As a complete outsider on these weapons I will take a guess and since I was looking at war canoes it does appear that what could be a "from that region" craft with the curved bows marked and of catamaran form with warriors down each flank and the central planking or walkway with the chief navigator and captain/leader …. the concept needs a seascape and I think a few inches down the blade you have just that.. but out of frame... at the stern more warriors shown . a fully armed and manned war canoe is my suggestion... The war canoe best fitting that description is shown below and may be Maori but it gets across my point. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 19th October 2019 at 05:55 PM.