BIG GUNS

VANDOO · 20th January 2011, 07:06 AM

THIS MAY GO A BIT OFF TOPIC TO SOME EXAMPLES POST 1900 BUT I FEEL IT WOULD BE AMISS TO EXCLUDE THE GIANT RAIL GUNS FROM WW1 AND WW2. TWO PICTURES ARE OF CIVIL WAR BIG GUNS, ONE IS A 13INCH MORTAR USED AT PETERSBURG VIRGINIA DURING THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR. ANOTHER IS SEVERAL CANNON AND CANNON BALLS AT RICHMOND VIRGINIA AFTER IT WAS BURNED BY THE VICTORS. THERE ARE TWO PICTURES OF THE ORIGINAL BIG BERTHA FROM WW1 AND TWO OF THE LARGER RAIL GUNS BUILT BY GERMANY FOR KRUPP ARMEMENT WORKS IN GERMANY WW2 AND A SHELL AND CHARGE FOR THE GUN. THE KRUPP GUN HAD A 80 CM BORE THE SHELLS WERE ALMOST 17 FEET LONG AND WEIGHED OVER 7 TONS, RANGE 29 MILES. IT WAS DESIGNED TO PENETRATE BUNKERS AND WOULD PENETRATE 80 YARDS DEEP AND LEAVE A CRATER 90 FEET ACROSS AND 30 FEET DEEP. THE GUN WEIGHED 1350 METRIC TONS, WAS 4 STORIES HIGH, 20 FOOT WIDE AND 140 FEET LONG. THE RECOIL OFTEN PUSHED THE GUNS BACK ON THE RAILROAD TRACKS 100 FEET. THE BIG KRUPP GUN WAS SET ON A DOUBBLE SET OF RAILS.
NAVAL VESSELS HAD AN ADVANTAGE OVER LAND BASED BIG GUNS AS THE WATER HELPED TAKE UP THE RECOIL. LAND GUNS PICTURED 1940 LARGE CANNONS AT SCHOFIELD BARRACKS HAWAII. AND A WW1 BRITISH GUN ON WHEELS.
KRUPP ALSO BUILT A 52 CM BORE GUN THAT SHOT FINNED ARROW SHELLS 95 MILES.
JUST FOR FUN IS A PICTURE FROM HAWAII WITH GIRLS STANDING BY SURF BOARDS ALSO KNOWN AS BIG GUNS.

M ELEY · 20th January 2011, 08:00 AM

Ahhh, Barry, I especially like the last pic-

The penetration power of the krupp gun was incredible. Would have worked nicely against Hitler's bunker if it had been brought into use there. The thickness of the barrel and just plain massiveness of the gun reminds me of those used by the Knights of St John at Malta. How they ever loaded them, I know not...

Jim McDougall · 20th January 2011, 05:12 PM

Interesting topic Vandoo! and as always it is fascinating to look into all aspects of arms and armor, from what they developed into in modern times into the deeply intriguing weapons of old.

As Mark has noted mentioning the massive guns of Malta, it brings to mind the fabled gun at Edinburgh, Mons Meg.

This huge bombard was apparantly built to order for the 'Grand Duke of the West' Philip (the Good) of Burgundy, and first fired in 1449 at Mons (in Wallonia). The 'good' duke is better known for his capture of Joan of Arc at Compiegne.

This huge medieval supergun was about 15 feet long, weighed 15,366 lbs and fired a ball of around 400 lbs! It is noted that the gun could only be fired about 8 times a day from the intense heat generated by the massive powder charge.

The gun was presented to King James II of Scotland by Philip about 1457, and apparantly suffered a burst barrel when it was fired about 1680, with suggestions of possible sabotage.

I always wondered what in the world 'Mons Meg' meant, though clearly the Mons referred to the city in Flanders where it was from. According to what I could find in OED, the term 'meg' referred loosely to any huge ordnance, and or to the loud noise or report. In one reference around 1700, it was used describing loud noise of ringing bells and the discharge of 'roaring megs'.

Another large gun which is lesser known but appears of the same ilk as Mons Meg, was the 'Great Cannon of Ghent', and of similar construction of welded iron bars. It was known as Dulle Griet (=foolish or evil meg) and often termed the red devil as it was painted red. It also bears insignia of the Order of the Golden Fleece (created by good Philip in 1430) and the cross of Burgundy.

Right now in the travels of the 'bookmobile' (our trusty RV) we are situated at a lake in Killeen, Texas, quite near Ft. Hood. At often odd hours it seems we are somewhat near enough to hear the loud booming reports of the 'megs'

being fired on the artillery range. At times they are loud enough to rattle windows and you can almost feel the concussion! I often wonder if the firing at 3AM is to intensify the sound, which permeates the otherwise still night.

The attached are Mons Meg, Philip the Good, map of the area of origin of Mons Meg (Mons is called Bergen , the Dutch name, on the map), and Mons Meg as it appeared c. 1680.

All best regards,
Jim

David · 20th January 2011, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I always wondered what in the world 'Mons Meg' meant, though clearly the Mons referred to the city in Flanders where it was from. According to what I could find in OED, the term 'meg' referred loosely to any huge ordnance, and or to the loud noise or report. In one reference around 1700, it was used describing loud noise of ringing bells and the discharge of 'roaring megs'.

Hey Jim, in the Wiki entry this info is sited to Agnes MacKenzie in the book Scottish Paegent.
"The gun is never called "Mons Meg" in any contemporary references until the 17th century. The "Meg" may either be a reference to Margaret of Denmark, Queen of James III of Scotland, or simply an alliteration, while Mons was one of the locations where the cannon was originally tested. McKenzie records that this class of artillery was known as a murderer and Mons Meg was certainly described as such."

Jim McDougall · 20th January 2011, 11:12 PM

Hi David, thank you for answering!!! and great info, which appears to be right. In "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications 1100-1800" (ed. David Caldwell, Edinburgh, 1981, p.419, Stevenson) the author notes that, "...in 1967 Dr. Claude Gaier gave us at last the fascinating documentation of the bombard first ,and apparantly until the 17th c.called 'mons', now familiarly known as Mons Meg".

"Music is a roaring meg against melancholy "
-Burton

In the 17th century, 'Roaring Meg' was a term used for several powerful cannons used, but in particular associated with a mortar cast in 1646 during the seige of Goodrich Castle .

According to E.C.Brewer ("Dictionary of Phrase and Fable" 1905) the name meg has been given to several articles of unusual size- thus the large blue black marble in the south cloister of Westminster Abbey over the grave of Gerrasius de Blois is called 'long meg of Westminster'.
The author also notes ' Mons Meg' and that the 'bomb' (bombard?) forged for the seige of Oudendarde now in the city of Ghent is called 'Mad Meg'.
It is also noted in "Edinburgh Antiquarian" of September, 1769 that a very tall man named Peter Branan was often called 'Long Meg'.
The monoliths near Penrith Cumberland, and about 67 in number, being about 10 ft. high, are arranged together, but one separate, and about 15 ft. high is termed ' Long Meg', and the arrangement called by locals and in subsequent lore, 'Long Meg and her daughters'.
Apparantly the term 'long meg' dates in these type parlances from about the time of Henry VIII.

It would seem that 'Mons' was given to James II in 1457, and long stood as a powerful appearing sentinel, with Brewer in another note, mentions that to the Scots, thought of her as a 'palladium'. That is a safeguard or something that provides safety to a city. It would seem to me that the term 'meg' with reference to unusual size, and in the perception that it was rather an item that showed power , was probably more of a product of the kind of traditional sentiment generated by Sir Walter Scott, and popularized by him with reference to this gun.

He was instrumental in the return to Edinburgh of the huge gun from London in 1828-29, and the term seems to be applied rather affectionately in some of the references in correspondence imploring the return.

It should be noted that the bombard previously mentioned and known as 'mad meg' was also known as 'the Red Devil' for its red paint. In a note regarding Mons Meg, when it had fallen into disuse after the collapse of its carraige, and having been neglected, was lifted up onto trestles and 'painted with red lead' in 1501.

Was this red lead paint a kind of 'japanning' for protection from corrosion? or was it it more of the psychological effect that was clearly attached to these huge weapons?

In the Royal navy it seems that the gun decks were painted red on many of the Man of War ships, allegedly to reduce the effect of gore in the effects of battle, but wonder if there is any relation.

attached, Roaring Meg

All best regards,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 20th January 2011, 11:32 PM

Chaps,

Beautiful pictures and a great post with amazing information gents, stuff I certainly never knew or ventured in to but one question that has always been on my mind since seeing the cannon in Elgoods Hindu work, HOW ON EARTH DID ANYONE LOAD THESE MUZZLE LOADING massive cannons????

Gav

celtan · 25th January 2011, 08:30 PM

Murderer = Mortar

Palladium = Champion / Defender / Warrior representing a cause, person or group.

: )

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Hey Jim, in the Wiki entry this info is sited to Agnes MacKenzie in the book Scottish Paegent.
"The gun is never called "Mons Meg" in any contemporary references until the 17th century. The "Meg" may either be a reference to Margaret of Denmark, Queen of James III of Scotland, or simply an alliteration, while Mons was one of the locations where the cannon was originally tested. McKenzie records that this class of artillery was known as a murderer and Mons Meg was certainly described as such."

VANDOO · 12th December 2011, 02:09 AM

HERE IS A IMPRESSIVE PICTURE OF THE GERMAN 250MM. K5 FIRING. NOTE THE TROOPS COVERING THEIR EARS AND THE LOADING MECANISM PARTIALLY SHOWN. A VERY IMPRESSIVE MUZZLE BLAST.

20th January 2011, 07:06 AM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	BIG GUNS THIS MAY GO A BIT OFF TOPIC TO SOME EXAMPLES POST 1900 BUT I FEEL IT WOULD BE AMISS TO EXCLUDE THE GIANT RAIL GUNS FROM WW1 AND WW2. TWO PICTURES ARE OF CIVIL WAR BIG GUNS, ONE IS A 13INCH MORTAR USED AT PETERSBURG VIRGINIA DURING THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR. ANOTHER IS SEVERAL CANNON AND CANNON BALLS AT RICHMOND VIRGINIA AFTER IT WAS BURNED BY THE VICTORS. THERE ARE TWO PICTURES OF THE ORIGINAL BIG BERTHA FROM WW1 AND TWO OF THE LARGER RAIL GUNS BUILT BY GERMANY FOR KRUPP ARMEMENT WORKS IN GERMANY WW2 AND A SHELL AND CHARGE FOR THE GUN. THE KRUPP GUN HAD A 80 CM BORE THE SHELLS WERE ALMOST 17 FEET LONG AND WEIGHED OVER 7 TONS, RANGE 29 MILES. IT WAS DESIGNED TO PENETRATE BUNKERS AND WOULD PENETRATE 80 YARDS DEEP AND LEAVE A CRATER 90 FEET ACROSS AND 30 FEET DEEP. THE GUN WEIGHED 1350 METRIC TONS, WAS 4 STORIES HIGH, 20 FOOT WIDE AND 140 FEET LONG. THE RECOIL OFTEN PUSHED THE GUNS BACK ON THE RAILROAD TRACKS 100 FEET. THE BIG KRUPP GUN WAS SET ON A DOUBBLE SET OF RAILS. NAVAL VESSELS HAD AN ADVANTAGE OVER LAND BASED BIG GUNS AS THE WATER HELPED TAKE UP THE RECOIL. LAND GUNS PICTURED 1940 LARGE CANNONS AT SCHOFIELD BARRACKS HAWAII. AND A WW1 BRITISH GUN ON WHEELS. KRUPP ALSO BUILT A 52 CM BORE GUN THAT SHOT FINNED ARROW SHELLS 95 MILES. JUST FOR FUN IS A PICTURE FROM HAWAII WITH GIRLS STANDING BY SURF BOARDS ALSO KNOWN AS BIG GUNS. Attached Images

20th January 2011, 05:12 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	Interesting topic Vandoo! and as always it is fascinating to look into all aspects of arms and armor, from what they developed into in modern times into the deeply intriguing weapons of old. As Mark has noted mentioning the massive guns of Malta, it brings to mind the fabled gun at Edinburgh, Mons Meg. This huge bombard was apparantly built to order for the 'Grand Duke of the West' Philip (the Good) of Burgundy, and first fired in 1449 at Mons (in Wallonia). The 'good' duke is better known for his capture of Joan of Arc at Compiegne. This huge medieval supergun was about 15 feet long, weighed 15,366 lbs and fired a ball of around 400 lbs! It is noted that the gun could only be fired about 8 times a day from the intense heat generated by the massive powder charge. The gun was presented to King James II of Scotland by Philip about 1457, and apparantly suffered a burst barrel when it was fired about 1680, with suggestions of possible sabotage. I always wondered what in the world 'Mons Meg' meant, though clearly the Mons referred to the city in Flanders where it was from. According to what I could find in OED, the term 'meg' referred loosely to any huge ordnance, and or to the loud noise or report. In one reference around 1700, it was used describing loud noise of ringing bells and the discharge of 'roaring megs'. Another large gun which is lesser known but appears of the same ilk as Mons Meg, was the 'Great Cannon of Ghent', and of similar construction of welded iron bars. It was known as Dulle Griet (=foolish or evil meg) and often termed the red devil as it was painted red. It also bears insignia of the Order of the Golden Fleece (created by good Philip in 1430) and the cross of Burgundy. Right now in the travels of the 'bookmobile' (our trusty RV) we are situated at a lake in Killeen, Texas, quite near Ft. Hood. At often odd hours it seems we are somewhat near enough to hear the loud booming reports of the 'megs' being fired on the artillery range. At times they are loud enough to rattle windows and you can almost feel the concussion! I often wonder if the firing at 3AM is to intensify the sound, which permeates the otherwise still night. The attached are Mons Meg, Philip the Good, map of the area of origin of Mons Meg (Mons is called Bergen , the Dutch name, on the map), and Mons Meg as it appeared c. 1680. All best regards, Jim Attached Images

20th January 2011, 11:12 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	Hi David, thank you for answering!!! and great info, which appears to be right. In "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications 1100-1800" (ed. David Caldwell, Edinburgh, 1981, p.419, Stevenson) the author notes that, "...in 1967 Dr. Claude Gaier gave us at last the fascinating documentation of the bombard first ,and apparantly until the 17th c.called 'mons', now familiarly known as Mons Meg". "Music is a roaring meg against melancholy " -Burton In the 17th century, 'Roaring Meg' was a term used for several powerful cannons used, but in particular associated with a mortar cast in 1646 during the seige of Goodrich Castle . According to E.C.Brewer ("Dictionary of Phrase and Fable" 1905) the name meg has been given to several articles of unusual size- thus the large blue black marble in the south cloister of Westminster Abbey over the grave of Gerrasius de Blois is called 'long meg of Westminster'. The author also notes ' Mons Meg' and that the 'bomb' (bombard?) forged for the seige of Oudendarde now in the city of Ghent is called 'Mad Meg'. It is also noted in "Edinburgh Antiquarian" of September, 1769 that a very tall man named Peter Branan was often called 'Long Meg'. The monoliths near Penrith Cumberland, and about 67 in number, being about 10 ft. high, are arranged together, but one separate, and about 15 ft. high is termed ' Long Meg', and the arrangement called by locals and in subsequent lore, 'Long Meg and her daughters'. Apparantly the term 'long meg' dates in these type parlances from about the time of Henry VIII. It would seem that 'Mons' was given to James II in 1457, and long stood as a powerful appearing sentinel, with Brewer in another note, mentions that to the Scots, thought of her as a 'palladium'. That is a safeguard or something that provides safety to a city. It would seem to me that the term 'meg' with reference to unusual size, and in the perception that it was rather an item that showed power , was probably more of a product of the kind of traditional sentiment generated by Sir Walter Scott, and popularized by him with reference to this gun. He was instrumental in the return to Edinburgh of the huge gun from London in 1828-29, and the term seems to be applied rather affectionately in some of the references in correspondence imploring the return. It should be noted that the bombard previously mentioned and known as 'mad meg' was also known as 'the Red Devil' for its red paint. In a note regarding Mons Meg, when it had fallen into disuse after the collapse of its carraige, and having been neglected, was lifted up onto trestles and 'painted with red lead' in 1501. Was this red lead paint a kind of 'japanning' for protection from corrosion? or was it it more of the psychological effect that was clearly attached to these huge weapons? In the Royal navy it seems that the gun decks were painted red on many of the Man of War ships, allegedly to reduce the effect of gore in the effects of battle, but wonder if there is any relation. attached, Roaring Meg All best regards, Jim Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 20th January 2011 at 11:24 PM.

20th January 2011, 11:32 PM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	loading Chaps, Beautiful pictures and a great post with amazing information gents, stuff I certainly never knew or ventured in to but one question that has always been on my mind since seeing the cannon in Elgoods Hindu work, HOW ON EARTH DID ANYONE LOAD THESE MUZZLE LOADING massive cannons???? Gav

12th December 2011, 02:09 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	HERE IS A IMPRESSIVE PICTURE OF THE GERMAN 250MM. K5 FIRING. NOTE THE TROOPS COVERING THEIR EARS AND THE LOADING MECANISM PARTIALLY SHOWN. A VERY IMPRESSIVE MUZZLE BLAST. Attached Images

20th January 2011, 08:00 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,095	Ahhh, Barry, I especially like the last pic- The penetration power of the krupp gun was incredible. Would have worked nicely against Hitler's bunker if it had been brought into use there. The thickness of the barrel and just plain massiveness of the gun reminds me of those used by the Knights of St John at Malta. How they ever loaded them, I know not...