Stating FACTS - Cultural and Forum 'Politics' - or POLICIES!

Matchlock · 19th June 2014, 09:57 AM

Vadim,

Reading your lines made my heart leap!
I feel that both our souls and minds are alike - so thank you beyond words, my friend!

Please DO POST your PM! So will I, right away.
Be aware, though, of the fact that two my threads have been closed and/or deleted - accusing me of violating forum rules concerning discussing what one of the moderators calls 'politics'.

Actually, all I did was state THE BARE FACTS OF CULTURAL AND MUSEUMS POLICIES - because this is the correct term, yes Sirree! - and I backed up every single word with actual, undeniable facts.

Alright then, Sir A.:
Go on and close and/or delete hundreds of other threads and posts accusing cultural and museums POLICIES - and over years. Just as you please. You have blatantly stated your definition of telling the truth already.

I never applied for becoming a member. Due to my international standing, I was invited by Ed Dittus to join the forum as an honorary member in 2008. And you all know that I have been doing my very best for the community ever since - in more than 4,000 posts, and for many of my friends privately. They have supported me right back.

So all of you: please feel free to email me whenever you feel or hope that I may of help you:

m.troemner@t-online

In 2009, a most highly respected member, who I have been proud of being counted among his friends ever since, wrote that I was

'... literally THE BACK BONE of the forum!'

Thank you so much, my dear friend; our minds and hearts are alike!

Though having been offered various options over the years, I have confined all my strength to Vikingsword - up to now.

So many of you have been mailing and calling me, assuring me that you are on my side!

Thanks for all your support, and best wishes as ever,
Michael/Michl Trömner

Quote:

Originally Posted by batjka

Michael,

I am a very recent member on this forum, but I have been reading your posts for a while and I am extremely impressed with the depth of your expertise in the field of early firearms. I have learned a great deal from you already and hope to learn even more in the future.

From your recent posts I have learned about your current unfortunate situation. It is truly a shame for Germany that you and your collection are treated the way they are.

While I cannot offer much practical help, I would like to express at least some moral support. I am also a member of other firearms forums attended by tens of thousands of people who love and admire firearms. With your permission, can I share the story of your hardship? You never know, there might be others willing and able to help.

Let me know if it's OK to post about your situation to another forum. And please do not despair! We need you!

Vadim

Marcus den toom · 19th June 2014, 10:42 AM

I was also quit suprised to see your thread closed, it would and should have sparked a discussion about this highly important subject.

Politics aside, the fact remains that even an youngster like me might not be able to see those great collections whenever they are deemed save and presentable to the outside world in a few decades, and i am the lucky one.
As i stated in the other thread, which might have been to politically seasoned (if so, just remove my post and continue the discussion instead of closing the thread), the connection between early firearms and firearms violence is far fetch. There is no police report or any clue what so ever to point to a connection between violence and early firearms!!!!

As we are all here on this forum we must assume we all like antique weapons, in whatever form or age (as long as they are antiques). Is it than not important to discuss this subject and support each other? There have been numerous attempt to even ban private antique weapon collections because of misperceptions and genneralisations.

The funny thing is though that most of the european royal families have extensive and beautifull collections of antique firearms, Oops politics

Matchlock · 19th June 2014, 10:48 AM

Marcus,
My friend,

THANKS!

Best,
Michl

Matchlock · 19th June 2014, 12:42 PM

Our member Batijka posted my statement on ar.15.com

Posted: Today 6:47:15 AM

http://www.ar15.com/forums/manageRep...1636208&page=1

This Gentleman is Michael Trömner, a historian and collector of early firearms. He posted this on vikingsword.com and I am reposting it here for everyone to see. This is beyond sad, it's criminal:

Since the German Reunification in 1990, state and museum funds for all cultural belongings in common, and especially for the purchase of antique 'military'/arsenal firearms - no matter how old and important they may be - , have been crudely cut back. Military firearms are officially condemned as possibly raising aggressive feelings with museum visitors viewing them.

The situation has aggravated, especially after those rampages acted by youngsters started. At Columbine high-school in Colorado, two senior students murdered 12 of their fellow students and one teacher in 1999. Moreover, they injured 24 students, with three other people being injured while attempting to escape. Eventually, the killers committed suicide.
The German cultural authorities feel that those antique historical firearms may incite young people to go mad and act in killing frenzy (German: Amoklauf). In 2009, at Winnenden high-school, Southern Germany, and in a murder-suicide act, a 17-year old student shot 16 people imcluding himself.

Actually, it was Swiss! cultural politicians who started that anti-historical firearms campaign in the 1990's. Consequently, large and important Swiss firearms collections have been banned from public exhibition and packed into the storage rooms. This happened to the large famous weapons collection at the Historisches Museum Berne, to the ample collections of the Swiss Landesmuseum Zurich and the Altes Zeughaus Solothurn, as well as to a other Swiss state museums.

And it was the same sad story with German museums as well. By the early 1990's, almost all firearms have been withdrawn from the exhibition rooms of such important museums as the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum Munich, the Deutsches Historisches Museum/Altes Zeughaus Berlin or the wonderful arsenal collection at the Stadtmuseum/Zeughaus Munich - to name just a few of them. Most antique firearms, 300 to 600 years old, have even been withdrawn from the huge exhibition halls of the Bayrisches Armeemuseum Ingolstadt, only 30 km next to my home.
They will never be on viewing again for at least the next 30 years!

On the other hand, crossbows, edged weapons like swords and, of course, all kinds of armor, are still officially regarded as noble and gallant (German: edel), knightly or even kingly, and are not primarily defined as means of war, by both the official political and cultural Swiss and German authorities and the museums. Consequently, they are allowed to stay on exhibition, while antique firearms, even - or maybe especially - when they are the earliest ever made, like all guns in my collection, which holds not one single item that was manufactured after ca. 1720! Even the most antique firearms are officially condemned - politically, morally and culturally, and are regarded as endangering peaceful life and politics.

The story is as sad as it is true. Most museum curators will look down in a highly suspicious way on any scholar asking to be granted access and do research on firearms and their accouterments. Many of those people, especially the so-called generation 1968, and of course female curators, even react personally and blatantly disgusted. Various times, I have been asked how I can manage to combine my academic interest in these items with my conscience, and have been affronted as being a firearms freak who is gaga about guns. Of course I have fired original 400 year-old muskets; is just part of my comprehensive research, and believe me: firing a matchlock musket that is 1.67 m long overall and weighs 1o kgs is an incomparable experience which leaves a lasting impression.

Everybody who really knows me and both my personal and political serious creed realizes that I actually love and defend peace, as well as the rights of all political persecutees and refugees, that I respect all living beings, and especially humans, no matter what color their skin may be or what nation belong to. I have always fought for the good fight, and animal rights. I love and defend all animals, and especially cats, from the bottom of my heart!
Not only am I a Christian and believe in God, I also graduated, among others, in Theology from Regensburg University in 1982.

But I also love historical arsenal arms, just for their cultural, historical, technical, art historical and social importance; and they clearly document the fact that there are both sides to every medal, as well as every human being is, and will always be, giftet with both good and evil - the reverse of the medal.

*************************

Vadim, thank you so much for supporting me, and believing in humanity and the heart - instead of blunt 'politics'!

Best,
Michael Trömner

Pukka Bundook · 19th June 2014, 03:17 PM

Dear all,

I can understand Michael's thread being closed, as it mentions Columbine, etc. But I Do believe that the important element of the thread should be open for discussion.
To me, this part is the concern we must all share regarding the removal of very important early forearms from public viewing.
What concerns me about this is;

Who decides what is good for us, the public........on a national and international level?
To decide what is good and not good for us, puts these individuals in a position of authority over us.
This authority was not granted by the public at large, but another sign of the Nanny State, and voices should be raised against it.

Andrew,
This may come across as Political, but one cannot bury ones head in the sand, and expect to keep freedom of choice.
Unfortunately, there are always those willing to take control of our lives for us, If we Let them.
To me, the taking of such liberties are both sinister and subversive.
If such people get away with it, we can be sure they will endeavour to further impose their wills on us in other directions as well.
The ostrich approach to the problem is not going to work in these cases.

Michael,
Regarding your posts;
I would join in the discussions more, as they are of interest to me, but my poor old dial-up cannot handle the volume of pictures you post, so until we go High-speed, I can't contribute much in a meaningful manner.

All best wishes,
Richard.

dana_w · 19th June 2014, 03:42 PM

I am also glad to see this topic back up for discussion. Matchlock makes some great points. Ignorance, apathy, and political correctness are a big problem for people who love history and historical weapons, especially firearms.

This article was published in the UK’s Telegraph in 2000. It details the problems Keith Neal’s daughter had in finding a place to exhibit her late father's remarkable collection of historic firearms.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...treasures.html

19th June 2014, 12:42 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A Policy Of Humanity - Instead of 'Politics'! Our member Batijka posted my statement on ar.15.com Posted: Today 6:47:15 AM http://www.ar15.com/forums/manageRep...1636208&page=1 This Gentleman is Michael Trömner, a historian and collector of early firearms. He posted this on vikingsword.com and I am reposting it here for everyone to see. This is beyond sad, it's criminal: Since the German Reunification in 1990, state and museum funds for all cultural belongings in common, and especially for the purchase of antique 'military'/arsenal firearms - no matter how old and important they may be - , have been crudely cut back. Military firearms are officially condemned as possibly raising aggressive feelings with museum visitors viewing them. The situation has aggravated, especially after those rampages acted by youngsters started. At Columbine high-school in Colorado, two senior students murdered 12 of their fellow students and one teacher in 1999. Moreover, they injured 24 students, with three other people being injured while attempting to escape. Eventually, the killers committed suicide. The German cultural authorities feel that those antique historical firearms may incite young people to go mad and act in killing frenzy (German: Amoklauf). In 2009, at Winnenden high-school, Southern Germany, and in a murder-suicide act, a 17-year old student shot 16 people imcluding himself. Actually, it was Swiss! cultural politicians who started that anti-historical firearms campaign in the 1990's. Consequently, large and important Swiss firearms collections have been banned from public exhibition and packed into the storage rooms. This happened to the large famous weapons collection at the Historisches Museum Berne, to the ample collections of the Swiss Landesmuseum Zurich and the Altes Zeughaus Solothurn, as well as to a other Swiss state museums. And it was the same sad story with German museums as well. By the early 1990's, almost all firearms have been withdrawn from the exhibition rooms of such important museums as the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum Munich, the Deutsches Historisches Museum/Altes Zeughaus Berlin or the wonderful arsenal collection at the Stadtmuseum/Zeughaus Munich - to name just a few of them. Most antique firearms, 300 to 600 years old, have even been withdrawn from the huge exhibition halls of the Bayrisches Armeemuseum Ingolstadt, only 30 km next to my home. They will never be on viewing again for at least the next 30 years! On the other hand, crossbows, edged weapons like swords and, of course, all kinds of armor, are still officially regarded as noble and gallant (German: edel), knightly or even kingly, and are not primarily defined as means of war, by both the official political and cultural Swiss and German authorities and the museums. Consequently, they are allowed to stay on exhibition, while antique firearms, even - or maybe especially - when they are the earliest ever made, like all guns in my collection, which holds not one single item that was manufactured after ca. 1720! Even the most antique firearms are officially condemned - politically, morally and culturally, and are regarded as endangering peaceful life and politics. The story is as sad as it is true. Most museum curators will look down in a highly suspicious way on any scholar asking to be granted access and do research on firearms and their accouterments. Many of those people, especially the so-called generation 1968, and of course female curators, even react personally and blatantly disgusted. Various times, I have been asked how I can manage to combine my academic interest in these items with my conscience, and have been affronted as being a firearms freak who is gaga about guns. Of course I have fired original 400 year-old muskets; is just part of my comprehensive research, and believe me: firing a matchlock musket that is 1.67 m long overall and weighs 1o kgs is an incomparable experience which leaves a lasting impression. Everybody who really knows me and both my personal and political serious creed realizes that I actually love and defend peace, as well as the rights of all political persecutees and refugees, that I respect all living beings, and especially humans, no matter what color their skin may be or what nation belong to. I have always fought for the good fight, and animal rights. I love and defend all animals, and especially cats, from the bottom of my heart! Not only am I a Christian and believe in God, I also graduated, among others, in Theology from Regensburg University in 1982. But I also love historical arsenal arms, just for their cultural, historical, technical, art historical and social importance; and they clearly document the fact that there are both sides to every medal, as well as every human being is, and will always be, giftet with both good and evil - the reverse of the medal. ************************* Vadim, thank you so much for supporting me, and believing in humanity and the heart - instead of blunt 'politics'! Best, Michael Trömner

19th June 2014, 03:42 PM	#6
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 429	I am also glad to see this topic back up for discussion. Matchlock makes some great points. Ignorance, apathy, and political correctness are a big problem for people who love history and historical weapons, especially firearms. This article was published in the UK’s Telegraph in 2000. It details the problems Keith Neal’s daughter had in finding a place to exhibit her late father's remarkable collection of historic firearms. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...treasures.html Last edited by dana_w; 19th June 2014 at 07:54 PM.

19th June 2014, 10:42 AM	#2
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	I was also quit suprised to see your thread closed, it would and should have sparked a discussion about this highly important subject. Politics aside, the fact remains that even an youngster like me might not be able to see those great collections whenever they are deemed save and presentable to the outside world in a few decades, and i am the lucky one. As i stated in the other thread, which might have been to politically seasoned (if so, just remove my post and continue the discussion instead of closing the thread), the connection between early firearms and firearms violence is far fetch. There is no police report or any clue what so ever to point to a connection between violence and early firearms!!!! As we are all here on this forum we must assume we all like antique weapons, in whatever form or age (as long as they are antiques). Is it than not important to discuss this subject and support each other? There have been numerous attempt to even ban private antique weapon collections because of misperceptions and genneralisations. The funny thing is though that most of the european royal families have extensive and beautifull collections of antique firearms, Oops politics

19th June 2014, 10:48 AM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Marcus, My friend, THANKS! Best, Michl

19th June 2014, 03:17 PM	#5
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Dear all, I can understand Michael's thread being closed, as it mentions Columbine, etc. But I Do believe that the important element of the thread should be open for discussion. To me, this part is the concern we must all share regarding the removal of very important early forearms from public viewing. What concerns me about this is; Who decides what is good for us, the public........on a national and international level? To decide what is good and not good for us, puts these individuals in a position of authority over us. This authority was not granted by the public at large, but another sign of the Nanny State, and voices should be raised against it. Andrew, This may come across as Political, but one cannot bury ones head in the sand, and expect to keep freedom of choice. Unfortunately, there are always those willing to take control of our lives for us, If we Let them. To me, the taking of such liberties are both sinister and subversive. If such people get away with it, we can be sure they will endeavour to further impose their wills on us in other directions as well. The ostrich approach to the problem is not going to work in these cases. Michael, Regarding your posts; I would join in the discussions more, as they are of interest to me, but my poor old dial-up cannot handle the volume of pictures you post, so until we go High-speed, I can't contribute much in a meaningful manner. All best wishes, Richard.