1840-1880?, Laguiole ,Massoptier ?with Trocar, fly,

JoeCanada42 · 30th August 2022, 11:32 PM

Hi everyone, just picked up this beauty last Sunday from an antique store/ garage sale. cost a whole 8 $.

My first though was it was close to a Navaja,
then I thought it could be a sailors knife with a marlin spike, and clasp.
then I found the partly legible markings on the blade would stand for Laguiole , Massoptier

So this is a Laguiole knife, and the spike would be a trocar or awl.. for puncturing livestocks stomachs... i wonder if that was just an excuse to validate carrying a much more intimidating weapon. like the markings on some stilettos..

I could hardly find any photos of antique laguioles, if you have please share.

I could find no info on the Massoptier, except for some new modern company in the 80's. apparently all the original knife makers closed down around world war 1.

I see a fly, not a bee.

as for the Sheppard's cross , on mine it is not the cross with a long base, to me it looks more like the five dots of the portuguese, like the 5 shields on the flag / coins..

please share any thoughts.
thanks

I added the watch chain to the knife, it snaps closed and locks open tight, i can see why these knives won rewards.

kronckew · 31st August 2022, 11:01 AM

I have a couple newer ones, good utility pocket knives. The bee on the spring back is defining, all laguiole knives should have that. they all look pretty much the same. Even the fixed blade ones just look like the folding ones opened.

kronckew · 1st September 2022, 09:03 PM

p.s. - It's NOT a fly: From the official guild pages: The 'Bee' is a traditional Napoleonic symbol they use.

kronckew · 1st September 2022, 09:25 PM

A sword pommel from the Second empire belonging to a high officer of Napoléon François Charles Joseph Bonaparte, Second Empire, around 1860.

JoeCanada42 · 4th September 2022, 12:26 AM

thanks kronkew for sharing, cool stuff to learn more about the bee,
I have heard some people say that story about napoleon was a myth..

I figured that since that piece of the blade lock prior to decoration was called the mouche or fly, (without any decoration it does have the general shape). i figured since it was called a fly it wouldn't take much imagination to decorate it with a fly. and perhaps that's how the fly originated. before being associated with the bee.

or not.

seems its an already debated issue, on first glance i see a fly.

David R · 4th September 2022, 01:21 PM

Another story about Napoleon's bee is that it was a misinterpretation of the image of the Cicada used by the Merovingian dynasty. The Cicada was used as a symbol of rebirth/resurrection. In a funerary context it makes more sense than a Bee or a Fly.

30th August 2022, 11:32 PM	#1
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	1840-1880?, Laguiole ,Massoptier ?with Trocar, fly, Hi everyone, just picked up this beauty last Sunday from an antique store/ garage sale. cost a whole 8 $. My first though was it was close to a Navaja, then I thought it could be a sailors knife with a marlin spike, and clasp. then I found the partly legible markings on the blade would stand for Laguiole , Massoptier So this is a Laguiole knife, and the spike would be a trocar or awl.. for puncturing livestocks stomachs... i wonder if that was just an excuse to validate carrying a much more intimidating weapon. like the markings on some stilettos.. I could hardly find any photos of antique laguioles, if you have please share. I could find no info on the Massoptier, except for some new modern company in the 80's. apparently all the original knife makers closed down around world war 1. I see a fly, not a bee. as for the Sheppard's cross , on mine it is not the cross with a long base, to me it looks more like the five dots of the portuguese, like the 5 shields on the flag / coins.. please share any thoughts. thanks I added the watch chain to the knife, it snaps closed and locks open tight, i can see why these knives won rewards. Attached Images

31st August 2022, 11:01 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	I have a couple newer ones, good utility pocket knives. The bee on the spring back is defining, all laguiole knives should have that. they all look pretty much the same. Even the fixed blade ones just look like the folding ones opened. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 31st August 2022 at 11:46 AM.

1st September 2022, 09:03 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	p.s. - It's NOT a fly: From the official guild pages: The 'Bee' is a traditional Napoleonic symbol they use. Attached Images

1st September 2022, 09:25 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	A sword pommel from the Second empire belonging to a high officer of Napoléon François Charles Joseph Bonaparte, Second Empire, around 1860. Attached Images

4th September 2022, 12:26 AM	#5
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	thanks kronkew for sharing, cool stuff to learn more about the bee, I have heard some people say that story about napoleon was a myth.. I figured that since that piece of the blade lock prior to decoration was called the mouche or fly, (without any decoration it does have the general shape). i figured since it was called a fly it wouldn't take much imagination to decorate it with a fly. and perhaps that's how the fly originated. before being associated with the bee. or not. seems its an already debated issue, on first glance i see a fly.

4th September 2022, 01:21 PM	#6
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Another story about Napoleon's bee is that it was a misinterpretation of the image of the Cicada used by the Merovingian dynasty. The Cicada was used as a symbol of rebirth/resurrection. In a funerary context it makes more sense than a Bee or a Fly.