Native American gunstock club

RSWORD · 5th June 2007, 01:45 AM

I ran across this lovely club recently and while it is not my general forte it just seemed to look and feel right. I know there are a lot of reproductions in Native American items but most of the gunstock clubs I have seen at shows that were contemporary tend to be a bit over the top with loads of brass tacks, feathers, etc. This one is much more subtle, lovely patina and colors and really feels great in the hands. So, am looking for opinions as to whether or not this item is original or not. Thanks.

t_c · 5th June 2007, 03:39 AM

Nice piece. I know what you mean about the repro stuff - most of it is really gaudy. I have no idea if yours is the real thing or not, but I thought this might help:
Trade Axe and Tomahawk Collectors Association
(they probably have a good idea about the authenticity of your piece)

Here's a gunstock blade from their site that does look similar to yours though (scroll way down - 2nd to last at bottom of page):
killer gunstock style tomahawk spontoon trade blade

Andrew · 5th June 2007, 05:08 AM

Native American weapons have become a quiet passion of mine in recent years, Rick. Unfortunately, the prices on these things combined with the proliferation of fakes and rarity of genuine items have prevented me from aquiring any.

I'd be terrified to spend what genuine stuff commands for fear of learning a very painful lesson. Consequently, I haven't handled or looked at nearly enough of these to have my opinion count for very much, so keep that in mind.

Gunstock clubs like yours are, as I'm sure you're aware, most often attributed to the eastern woodland tribes. Similar clubs were used by various Plains tribes, but they were much less massive, with generally thinner profiles.

The blades, when present, were usually "trade" blades manufactured in Europe or, quite often, by skilled American blacksmiths. Your blade is exactly what I would expect to see on one of these. Are there any marks at all on your blade?

Any provenance supplied by the seller?

It's next to impossible to really get a feel for this lovely thing just from photos. If genuine, it looks remarkably well-cared for. Any subtle signs of wear around the handle? How about on the striking areas? I would expect to see signs of use (or at least re-finishing) on such a weapon, particularly since it isn't all tarted-up.

Jim McDougall · 5th June 2007, 02:09 PM

Rsword,
What amazing timing! Lately I've become pretty preoccupied with Native American cultural study and some of the weaponry used, but completely agree with Andrew, pretty scary thinking of acquiring examples with the repro stuff out there.
I know that years ago I became intrigued by the interesting gunstock club used in "Last of the Mohicans" and did some research.....wish I had my notes on it here!! I remember speaking with the guy who made the examples for the movie..I think he was in Tennessee. Also remember corresponding with Norm Flayderman....he is 'the man' when it comes to Americana!!!! I think he knows more on Native American weaponry than anybody and of course has written considerably on the subject.

I would really like to see more discussion on Native American weapons here! Sort of our own home ethnographic weapons yet seldom discussed!

All the best,
Jim

CharlesS · 5th June 2007, 04:19 PM

To me Rick's club's wood looks awfully machined, and the paint looks like an oil base rather than a more muted earth tone. But hard to tell from the pics.

I collected repro Native American weapons for years for display in my history and religion classes(...wished I coulda used 'em in class a couple of times

), and I can tell you that the some of the repros out there have an astonishingly authentic look to them. Many Native American artists reproduce these weapons as, just that, art, and they use authentic styles and materials. I wish I had kept pics of some of my old stuff or some examples for here, but I sold them all to a tourist trading post in Oklahoma.

About 10 years ago some of the props used in Dances with Wolves were sold and they may have been props, but they were "the real thing" in every regard, just not old. I was lucky enough to get a ball head war club from the movie, but again sold it.......for blades.

My point is that I have seen enough of these to know that I would NEVER, EVER buy a piece that I assumed was pre-20th Cent. without the input of a real expert.

Henk · 5th June 2007, 11:14 PM

I really like this stuff, but i cann't say a thing about it.

Even when it is a repro, it is a very nice club. But my first impression on this club is the same as CharlesS. I don't think it is hand made.

Just like Jim I would also like to see more of native american weapons and learn from it. Even for an European it is a very interesting subject.

5th June 2007, 01:45 AM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Native American gunstock club I ran across this lovely club recently and while it is not my general forte it just seemed to look and feel right. I know there are a lot of reproductions in Native American items but most of the gunstock clubs I have seen at shows that were contemporary tend to be a bit over the top with loads of brass tacks, feathers, etc. This one is much more subtle, lovely patina and colors and really feels great in the hands. So, am looking for opinions as to whether or not this item is original or not. Thanks. Attached Images

5th June 2007, 03:39 AM	#2
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	Nice piece. I know what you mean about the repro stuff - most of it is really gaudy. I have no idea if yours is the real thing or not, but I thought this might help: Trade Axe and Tomahawk Collectors Association (they probably have a good idea about the authenticity of your piece) Here's a gunstock blade from their site that does look similar to yours though (scroll way down - 2nd to last at bottom of page): killer gunstock style tomahawk spontoon trade blade

5th June 2007, 05:08 AM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Native American weapons have become a quiet passion of mine in recent years, Rick. Unfortunately, the prices on these things combined with the proliferation of fakes and rarity of genuine items have prevented me from aquiring any. I'd be terrified to spend what genuine stuff commands for fear of learning a very painful lesson. Consequently, I haven't handled or looked at nearly enough of these to have my opinion count for very much, so keep that in mind. Gunstock clubs like yours are, as I'm sure you're aware, most often attributed to the eastern woodland tribes. Similar clubs were used by various Plains tribes, but they were much less massive, with generally thinner profiles. The blades, when present, were usually "trade" blades manufactured in Europe or, quite often, by skilled American blacksmiths. Your blade is exactly what I would expect to see on one of these. Are there any marks at all on your blade? Any provenance supplied by the seller? It's next to impossible to really get a feel for this lovely thing just from photos. If genuine, it looks remarkably well-cared for. Any subtle signs of wear around the handle? How about on the striking areas? I would expect to see signs of use (or at least re-finishing) on such a weapon, particularly since it isn't all tarted-up.

5th June 2007, 02:09 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Rsword, What amazing timing! Lately I've become pretty preoccupied with Native American cultural study and some of the weaponry used, but completely agree with Andrew, pretty scary thinking of acquiring examples with the repro stuff out there. I know that years ago I became intrigued by the interesting gunstock club used in "Last of the Mohicans" and did some research.....wish I had my notes on it here!! I remember speaking with the guy who made the examples for the movie..I think he was in Tennessee. Also remember corresponding with Norm Flayderman....he is 'the man' when it comes to Americana!!!! I think he knows more on Native American weaponry than anybody and of course has written considerably on the subject. I would really like to see more discussion on Native American weapons here! Sort of our own home ethnographic weapons yet seldom discussed! All the best, Jim

5th June 2007, 04:19 PM	#5
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	To me Rick's club's wood looks awfully machined, and the paint looks like an oil base rather than a more muted earth tone. But hard to tell from the pics. I collected repro Native American weapons for years for display in my history and religion classes(...wished I coulda used 'em in class a couple of times ), and I can tell you that the some of the repros out there have an astonishingly authentic look to them. Many Native American artists reproduce these weapons as, just that, art, and they use authentic styles and materials. I wish I had kept pics of some of my old stuff or some examples for here, but I sold them all to a tourist trading post in Oklahoma. About 10 years ago some of the props used in Dances with Wolves were sold and they may have been props, but they were "the real thing" in every regard, just not old. I was lucky enough to get a ball head war club from the movie, but again sold it.......for blades. My point is that I have seen enough of these to know that I would NEVER, EVER buy a piece that I assumed was pre-20th Cent. without the input of a real expert.

5th June 2007, 11:14 PM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I really like this stuff, but i cann't say a thing about it. Even when it is a repro, it is a very nice club. But my first impression on this club is the same as CharlesS. I don't think it is hand made. Just like Jim I would also like to see more of native american weapons and learn from it. Even for an European it is a very interesting subject.