Strange Saw Backed Hanger

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

I recently aquired this off sawback hanger. The grip is made of Ebony and it came with a well fitting nicely made scabbard. I thought it was a Pioneer sword but at this point I havn't been able to find anything like it. It is stamped 83M at the top of the blade on one side and the initials H I O 91 on the other. Any idea's

Cheers Cathey

[fernando]

Hi Cathey,

Surprising that you also collect items so much 'younger' than those antique gems you often show us .

[Jim McDougall]

Cathey, this is truly an anomaly, and you're spot on with the 'pioneer' attribution in my opinion. These 'saw back' weapons were key to these engineer units for utility in constructing field fortifications with trenches or defenses around artillery.

The cross hatching on the grip as well as the stepped pommel design remind me of the colonial cavalry sabers made by J Bourne & Sons under contract with Wilkinson for Indian military 1880s+. The one I have (pictured as were used by 13th Bengal Lancers), seems to have notable similarity.

Interestingly, the cross hatch ebony grip seems to have been a French affectation during about Napoleonic times for officers swords, so not sure what connection, if any, might be there.

The British saw back pioneer sword was introduced (officially) in 1856. It seems to have in some degree been intended for use by the artillery gunners for the utility purposes noted, and replacing the so called 'Spanish' style sword bayonet they were apparently using during Napoleonic period. That term is claimed to have been colloquial for its use in the Peninsular campaigns in Spain.
Burton (1884) noted that these 'saw backs' were pretty much useless as either tool or weapon, and as a bayonet was worse as the serrations would cause the weapon to be hopelessly lodged in the victim.
Still this feature seemed to prevail, and by WWI the Schmidt-Rubin saw back bayonet used by the German's was seen in that terrifying view, so much so that it was said that British soldiers capturing Germans with these 'barbarous' bayonets would shoot them on the spot. The Germans in response, began grinding down the backs of these.

[Cathey]

Hi Fernando and Jim

Your correct this is not something I would usually pick up but it was part of a deal to get a rather nice Walloon and unusual colichemarde small sword. I think Jim might be on to something with the British India connection as Ebony grips were also popular there. It is nicely made but I am yet to find another one to compare it to.

Cheers Cathey

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Cathey.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Cathey

...It is nicely made but I am yet to find another one to compare it to.

Cheers Cathey

I have a similar one without a knuckle bow and a wooden thin pale leather covered scabbard with the end covered in a bronze chape. The oval guard and pommel cap are also bronze. It is marked with the double struck broad arrow as out of service. Blade is heavy, slightly curved an has a proper double row of nicely set saw teeth.



Tried posting it earlier, but it disappeared.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...It seems to have in some degree been intended for use by the artillery gunners for the utility purposes noted, and replacing the so called 'Spanish' style sword bayonet they were apparently using during Napoleonic period. That term is claimed to have been colloquial for its use in the Peninsular campaigns in Spain...

Jim, hopefuly the conversation over these 'tool weapons' doesn't lead us to an area beyond our forum scope, you know, 20th century WW militaria and the like.
Concerning the what you call Spanish style sword bayonet, while i find this a mistery, i can tell that Juan Luis Calvó, Barceló Rubi and Vicente Toledo only mention a model 1803 for sappers. One particularity with this model is that it had a hole in the point of the blade to allow for two hands/users to perform a better sawing.


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, hopefuly the conversation over these 'tool weapons' doesn't lead us to an area beyond our forum scope, you know, 20th century WW militaria and the like.
Concerning the what you call Spanish style sword bayonet, while i find this a mistery, i can tell that Juan Luis Calvó, Barceló Rubi and Vicente Toledo only mention a model 1803 for sappers. One particularity with this model is that it had a hole in the point of the blade to allow for two hands/users to perform a better sawing.

The style and circumstances of those 'Spanish' style bayonets is very vague in the references concerning these being used by artillery gunners in the British army, as you recall the dilemma with the briquets I was discussing a while back. Interesting that a feature like that hole was intended for use as a tool (saw) yet these were clearly intended as weapons.




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You're right, and I was immediately apprehensive about using the word 'tool' in describing these weapons, but even the sage Richard Burton described the use of these weapons for utility in these forces charged with functions involving fortifications.

Since the Spanish pattern was in the Napoleonic period it seemed like it met the required criteria to be discussed here. The British pattern discussed is c. 1856 so still OK.

An interesting note about saw back blades might be brought in here, and that many 'hunting hangers' had this feature in the 17th and 18th century supposedly for field dressing game. Hunting hangers were of course not combat oriented, however invariably they found use by officers in many cases.
I know that the Hounslow hangers made in England in the early 17th century were, though resembling hunting hangers, actually intended for use on ships. The serrated saw backs were used for sawing through fouled rigging etc. but the hangers themselves were regarded as 'cutlasses' which were actually naval weapons used in combat.

Since these were last known in use in the Revolutionary war period, their mention is moot as far as the time period allotted but that these weapons in form were used for hunting as well as utility. It seems there are so many cases where weapons and tools transcend purpose and use.

Axes often have a poll on the back of the head , often used as a hammer, but of course deadly as a blunt force weapon as well.

I just looked back at my earlier post and realized I mentioned a bayonet from WWI in the context of my comments in analogy, sorry.

[Cathey]

Saw Back Short Sword (Hanger, Machete ?)
Nationality: British India maybe?
Date: Circa 1880 ?
Maker/Retailer: n/a
Overall Length: In Scabbard 28 3/16” 71.5 cm, Sword Only 27 ½” 69.9 cm
Blade length: 22 ½” 57.2 cm (Saw back 16” 40.5 cm)
Blade widest point: 1 ½” 3.8 cm
Hilt widest point: 5” 12.7 cm
Inside grip length: 4” 10.1 cm
Weight: In Scabbard 0.971 grams Sword Only 0.905 grams
Marks, etc.: It is stamped 83M at the top of the blade on one side and the initials H I O 91 on the other.

Description:
Hanger with steel D Shaped Guard and stepped pommel. The grip is ebony with fine cross hatched decoration. The blade is broad, heavy and saw backed, stamped 83M at the top of the blade on one side and the initials H I O 91 on the other. The Black Leather scabbard has steel mounts.

New Pictures attached

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... It seems there are so many cases where weapons and tools transcend purpose and use...

In the case of the model 1803 the Spaniards had it as a 'machete zapadores' (sappers machete); Calvó even calls it a 'machete sierra' (saw machete). Definitely a weapon with a tool utility.


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